"The basics of HTML" article updated

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"The basics of HTML" article updated

Chris Mills-6
http://www.w3.org/wiki/The_basics_of_HTML

This one has been given a facelift too, and is now ready for translation/proofing.

--

Chris Mills
Open standards evangelist and dev.opera.com editor
Opera Software

* Try our browsers: http://www.opera.com
* Learn to build a better web, with the Opera web standards curriculum: http://www.opera.com/wsc
* Learn about the latest open standards technologies and techniques: http://dev.opera.com



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Re: "The basics of HTML" article updated

Jeremie Patonnier
Hello,

The French translation for this article is ready for review/proofreading :
http://www.w3.org/wiki/User_talk:Jpatonni#French_translation_proposal_for_:_The_basics_of_HTML

My Talk page on the Wiki is definitely not the best place to store all my translations
As long as the W3C Wiki is not ready for internationalization, I'm a bit reluctant to create the corresponding pages for the French translation... however, it's doable so let me now if you think it's ok to do so.

Meanwhile, maybe it could be hosted on Opera.com. Chris, what do you think?

Cheers,
Jeremie

2011/8/3 Chris Mills <[hidden email]>
http://www.w3.org/wiki/The_basics_of_HTML

This one has been given a facelift too, and is now ready for translation/proofing.

--

Chris Mills
Open standards evangelist and dev.opera.com editor
Opera Software

* Try our browsers: http://www.opera.com
* Learn to build a better web, with the Opera web standards curriculum: http://www.opera.com/wsc
* Learn about the latest open standards technologies and techniques: http://dev.opera.com






--
Jeremie
.............................
Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net
Twitter : @JeremiePat

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Re: "The basics of HTML" article updated

Chris Mills-6

On 8 Aug 2011, at 21:48, Jeremie Patonnier wrote:

Hello,

The French translation for this article is ready for review/proofreading :
http://www.w3.org/wiki/User_talk:Jpatonni#French_translation_proposal_for_:_The_basics_of_HTML

My Talk page on the Wiki is definitely not the best place to store all my translations
As long as the W3C Wiki is not ready for internationalization, I'm a bit reluctant to create the corresponding pages for the French translation... however, it's doable so let me now if you think it's ok to do so.

Meanwhile, maybe it could be hosted on Opera.com. Chris, what do you think?

The best place for now would be to have it on dev.opera.com, coming off of http://dev.opera.com/articles/view/12-the-basics-of-html/. I can happily put it on there for you.
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Re: "The basics of HTML" article updated

Coralie Mercier
In reply to this post by Jeremie Patonnier

Hi Jérémie, all,

Replying to the topic of W3C wiki still lacking internationalization tools.

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:48:22 +0200, Jeremie Patonnier  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

[...]

> My Talk page on the Wiki is definitely not the best place to store all my
> translations
> As long as the W3C Wiki is not ready for internationalization,

We're under-staffed and the holiday season makes matters even worse.

Internationalizing the wiki is going to happen, although I wasn't told  
when that might be.

> I'm a bit
> reluctant to create the corresponding pages for the French translation...
> however, it's doable so let me now if you think it's ok to do so.

Could you explain why the reluctance to create the corresponding pages for  
translations?

I'm trying to understand the technical constraints and limits.

I don't feel strongly (perhaps until I'm educated on the wiki constraints)  
whether you host your translations on the dev.opera.com wiki, or you carry  
on feeding your Talk page, or you create a real landing page for each  
translation.

However, I have a clear preference for the solution that is the most  
cost-effective and requires the least effort.

For instance, hosting the translation in one place (dev.opera.com) and  
then in another (multilingual w3c wiki) when that other place becomes  
ready means maintaining two locations, or maintaining one and making sure  
the other points to that one area that is maintained.

I was under the naive assumption (or somebody told me --I thought it was  
you, Jérémie, but I am not finding that e-mail in my archive) that a  
translation has its own URI on the wiki, and that making it the  
translation of a given article via the multinlingual wiki tool was  
orthogonal.

Coralie

[...]

--
Coralie Mercier - Communications Team - Incubator Activity Lead
              World Wide Web Consortium - http://www.w3.org
      W3C/ERCIM - N212 - 2004, rte des lucioles - 06410 Biot - FR
mailto:[hidden email] +33492387590 http://www.w3.org/People/CMercier/

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Re: "The basics of HTML" article updated

Coralie Mercier
In reply to this post by Jeremie Patonnier
On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:48:22 +0200, Jeremie Patonnier  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> The French translation for this article is ready for review/proofreading  
> :
> http://www.w3.org/wiki/User_talk:Jpatonni#French_translation_proposal_for_:_The_basics_of_HTML
[...]

Hi Jérémie,

I'll be proofreading your translation, and edit in place, like last time.

Coralie

--
Coralie Mercier - Communications Team - Incubator Activity Lead
              World Wide Web Consortium - http://www.w3.org
      W3C/ERCIM - N212 - 2004, rte des lucioles - 06410 Biot - FR
mailto:[hidden email] +33492387590 http://www.w3.org/People/CMercier/

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Re: "The basics of HTML" article updated

Chris Mills-6
In reply to this post by Coralie Mercier

On 9 Aug 2011, at 13:55, Coralie Mercier wrote:

>
> Hi Jérémie, all,
>
> Replying to the topic of W3C wiki still lacking internationalization tools.
>
> On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:48:22 +0200, Jeremie Patonnier <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
>> My Talk page on the Wiki is definitely not the best place to store all my
>> translations
>> As long as the W3C Wiki is not ready for internationalization,
>
> We're under-staffed and the holiday season makes matters even worse.
>
> Internationalizing the wiki is going to happen, although I wasn't told when that might be.
>
>> I'm a bit
>> reluctant to create the corresponding pages for the French translation...
>> however, it's doable so let me now if you think it's ok to do so.
>
> Could you explain why the reluctance to create the corresponding pages for translations?
>
> I'm trying to understand the technical constraints and limits.
>
> I don't feel strongly (perhaps until I'm educated on the wiki constraints) whether you host your translations on the dev.opera.com wiki, or you carry on feeding your Talk page, or you create a real landing page for each translation.
>
> However, I have a clear preference for the solution that is the most cost-effective and requires the least effort.
>
> For instance, hosting the translation in one place (dev.opera.com) and then in another (multilingual w3c wiki) when that other place becomes ready means maintaining two locations, or maintaining one and making sure the other points to that one area that is maintained.

It sounds like it could turn into a nightmare, but in reality we would be just putting it on dev.opera.com until the W3C wiki is ready to hold the translations, and then we'd move it back over there, with the dev.opera.com page being redirected.

>
> I was under the naive assumption (or somebody told me --I thought it was you, Jérémie, but I am not finding that e-mail in my archive) that a translation has its own URI on the wiki, and that making it the translation of a given article via the multinlingual wiki tool was orthogonal.
>
> Coralie
>
> [...]
>
> --
> Coralie Mercier - Communications Team - Incubator Activity Lead
>             World Wide Web Consortium - http://www.w3.org
>     W3C/ERCIM - N212 - 2004, rte des lucioles - 06410 Biot - FR
> mailto:[hidden email] +33492387590 http://www.w3.org/People/CMercier/


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Re: "The basics of HTML" article updated

Coralie Mercier
In reply to this post by Coralie Mercier
On Tue, 09 Aug 2011 15:05:57 +0200, Coralie Mercier <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:48:22 +0200, Jeremie Patonnier  
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> The French translation for this article is ready for  
>> review/proofreading :
>> http://www.w3.org/wiki/User_talk:Jpatonni#French_translation_proposal_for_:_The_basics_of_HTML
> [...]
>
> Hi Jérémie,
>
> I'll be proofreading your translation, and edit in place, like last time.

Done.

Coralie

--
Coralie Mercier - Communications Team - Incubator Activity Lead
              World Wide Web Consortium - http://www.w3.org
      W3C/ERCIM - N212 - 2004, rte des lucioles - 06410 Biot - FR
mailto:[hidden email] +33492387590 http://www.w3.org/People/CMercier/

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Re: "The basics of HTML" article updated

Jeremie Patonnier
In reply to this post by Coralie Mercier
Hello Coralie

2011/8/9 Coralie Mercier <[hidden email]>

Hi Jérémie, all,

Replying to the topic of W3C wiki still lacking internationalization tools.

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:48:22 +0200, Jeremie Patonnier <[hidden email]> wrote:

[...]


My Talk page on the Wiki is definitely not the best place to store all my
translations
As long as the W3C Wiki is not ready for internationalization,

We're under-staffed and the holiday season makes matters even worse.

Internationalizing the wiki is going to happen, although I wasn't told when that might be.

I think I'm not very clear on that topic. There is no rush, take your time, it's perfectly fine. I do not intend to blame anyone on that matter. We all have our own agenda. I have time now because I perform those translations on my spare time, I know that I will be less available this autumn. That's life, it's ok for every one. For the time being, it's just a matter of organisation to myself.
 
I'm a bit
reluctant to create the corresponding pages for the French translation...
however, it's doable so let me now if you think it's ok to do so.

Could you explain why the reluctance to create the corresponding pages for translations?

Sure. My main concern is about the language available for the pages of the wiki. Currently, there is no way to say explicitly that the content of a wiki page is written with something else than english. It's an accessibility concerne and, even it's not that important, I found this a bit disturbing for a content that will come from the W3C Wiki (remember the WAI, etc.). In the same spirit, the UI is localisable only if you have a wiki account. It is quite disturbing for anonymous users to have a UI in a language which is different than the main content.

Those concerns make me just reluctant, not opposed, to publish some not english content on the W3C Wiki. If you think it's ok and if you think that language stuff is not a big concern, I'm ready to go on.
 
I'm trying to understand the technical constraints and limits.

In my point of view the only thing really missing is a way to explicitly declare the language of the page's content.
 
I don't feel strongly (perhaps until I'm educated on the wiki constraints) whether you host your translations on the dev.opera.com wiki, or you carry on feeding your Talk page, or you create a real landing page for each translation.

However, I have a clear preference for the solution that is the most cost-effective and requires the least effort.

For instance, hosting the translation in one place (dev.opera.com) and then in another (multilingual w3c wiki) when that other place becomes ready means maintaining two locations, or maintaining one and making sure the other points to that one area that is maintained.

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best ;) As Chris pointed out, it's just a temporary hosting solution to have it publicly available. When the W3C will host that content, a simple redirection will do the trick ;) To be perfectly clear, the intent is to have all the translated content on the Wiki, but in the mean time, it's a pity to have this content unavailable for no one.
 
I was under the naive assumption (or somebody told me --I thought it was you, Jérémie, but I am not finding that e-mail in my archive) that a translation has its own URI on the wiki, and that making it the translation of a given article via the multinlingual wiki tool was orthogonal.

Yes it was me :)

Cheers
--
Jeremie
.............................
Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net
Twitter : @JeremiePat

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Re: "The basics of HTML" article updated

Jeremie Patonnier
In reply to this post by Coralie Mercier
Thank you Coralie.

By the way, this article need 2 images to show some rendering example. Do you know how is it possible to upload images on the wiki ? I'm unable to find this feature.

Cheers,
Jeremie

2011/8/9 Coralie Mercier <[hidden email]>
On Tue, 09 Aug 2011 15:05:57 +0200, Coralie Mercier <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Mon, 08 Aug 2011 22:48:22 +0200, Jeremie Patonnier <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

The French translation for this article is ready for review/proofreading :
http://www.w3.org/wiki/User_talk:Jpatonni#French_translation_proposal_for_:_The_basics_of_HTML
[...]

Hi Jérémie,

I'll be proofreading your translation, and edit in place, like last time.

Done.


Coralie

--
Coralie Mercier - Communications Team - Incubator Activity Lead
            World Wide Web Consortium - http://www.w3.org
    W3C/ERCIM - N212 - 2004, rte des lucioles - 06410 Biot - FR
mailto:[hidden email] <a href="tel:%2B33492387590" value="+33492387590" target="_blank">+33492387590 http://www.w3.org/People/CMercier/



--
Jeremie
.............................
Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net
Twitter : @JeremiePat

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Re: "The basics of HTML" article updated

Chris Mills-6

On 9 Aug 2011, at 16:39, Jeremie Patonnier wrote:

> Thank you Coralie.
>
> By the way, this article need 2 images to show some rendering example. Do you know how is it possible to upload images on the wiki ? I'm unable to find this feature.

In the editing screen, there is an "embedded file" button, which looks a bit like a picture in a frame, in the middle of the button bar.

One thing I was wondering about though - you don't seem to be allowed to upload example files to the Wiki. I have tried a few times to upload HTML files, etc, and been told it is a disallowed file format. So what to do about this? I am currently linking to the versions on dev.opera.com.


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Re: "The basics of HTML" article updated

Jeremie Patonnier
Hi,

2011/8/9 Chris Mills <[hidden email]>
In the editing screen, there is an "embedded file" button, which looks a bit like a picture in a frame, in the middle of the button bar.

Yes I saw that button but it doesn't allow me to upload any thing. It seams that I have no right to upload, this is something allowed to administrator only... regular guys can't upload :'(

Cheers
--
Jeremie
.............................
Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net
Twitter : @JeremiePat

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Re: "The basics of HTML" article updated

Chris Mills-6

On 10 Aug 2011, at 21:46, Jeremie Patonnier wrote:

Hi,

2011/8/9 Chris Mills <[hidden email]>
In the editing screen, there is an "embedded file" button, which looks a bit like a picture in a frame, in the middle of the button bar.

Yes I saw that button but it doesn't allow me to upload any thing. It seams that I have no right to upload, this is something allowed to administrator only... regular guys can't upload :'(

ack - damn!

Although I wasn't aware I was an admin or anything - maybe it is because I have a full W3C login, rather than just a public account?
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Re: "The basics of HTML" article updated

Coralie Mercier
In reply to this post by Jeremie Patonnier
On Tue, 09 Aug 2011 17:35:56 +0200, Jeremie Patonnier  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Those concerns make me just reluctant, not opposed, to publish some not  
> english content on the W3C Wiki. If you think it's ok and if you think  
> that language stuff is not a big concern, I'm ready to go on.

Jérémie, I don't feel strongly whether you host your translations on the  
W3C wiki or the Opera one.

Coralie

--
Coralie Mercier - Communications Team - Incubator Activity Lead
              World Wide Web Consortium - http://www.w3.org
      W3C/ERCIM - N212 - 2004, rte des lucioles - 06410 Biot - FR
mailto:[hidden email] +33492387590 http://www.w3.org/People/CMercier/