[i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

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[i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

r12a
[raised by aphillips]

https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata

Best practice #3 introduces itself as:

 > Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer applications to
work accurately with things like dates, currencies and numbers that may
look similar but have different meanings in different locales.

But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in a
locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing the string
"€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the following is strongly
preferred:

```
"price" {
    "value": 2000.00,
    "currency": "EUR"
}
```

The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.

Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping symbol,
number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's because there can be
wide variation (sometimes open to misinterpretation) that sending a
locale neutral format is preferred for data values. Note also btw that
the position of the currency symbol is dependent on the locale. In
France it would be normal to write 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00. Same
even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.


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Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Annette Greiner
Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,

We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice document,
but we would like some clarification of the practice of locale
neutrality. You mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol,
grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you
give an example of a locale-neutral data structure for monetary values.
But this structure alone does not appear to address differences in
decimal symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, or digit
shapes. It does provide a mechanism to separately specify the units, and
the example uses an ISO-4217 currency code, both of which we agree are
good ideas. Is there a broad standard (beyond just monetary) for
addressing the other symbol/representation issues you raised that we can
address briefly in our best practice? Do you consider SI units
consistent with a locale-neutral approach? Is there a locale-neutral
standard for representing decimal numbers (perhaps using a period and no
grouping, as in your example)?

-Annette


On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> [raised by aphillips]
>
> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>
> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
>
> > Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer applications
> to work accurately with things like dates, currencies and numbers that
> may look similar but have different meanings in different locales.
>
> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in a
> locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing the string
> "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the following is strongly
> preferred:
>
> ```
> "price" {
>    "value": 2000.00,
>    "currency": "EUR"
> }
> ```
>
> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
> excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
>
> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping symbol,
> number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's because there can
> be wide variation (sometimes open to misinterpretation) that sending a
> locale neutral format is preferred for data values. Note also btw that
> the position of the currency symbol is dependent on the locale. In
> France it would be normal to write 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>
>

--
Annette Greiner
NERSC Data and Analytics Services
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory


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RE: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Phillips, Addison-2
Hi Annette,

Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of the WG.

Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the Internet in general. One familiar format referenced by your document, for example, is XML Schema. While the representations of numbers, dates, and the like in XML Schema would be "more appropriate" for some languages/locales than others if given as plain text, what distinguishes them is that they are all machine readable and intended to be read by machines for later processing. The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the data's consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific separators (such as decimal separators) over other, more localized values. Save for "free text" (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral and these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so forth.

Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course, covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon), we have many different common measurement units defined internally. To transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to construct our own data schemas and identifiers. There are profoundly many ways to measure shoes, dresses, auto parts, hats, drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a nightmare to have to deal with localized presentation formats on top of that.

But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and these are what are needed to build almost any data structure necessary for global interchange of data.

Does that make sense?

Addison

Addison Phillips
Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
Chair (W3C I18N WG)

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.




> -----Original Message-----
> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Cc: www International <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
> representation #187
>
> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
>
> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice document, but
> we would like some clarification of the practice of locale neutrality. You
> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol, grouping symbol,
> number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you give an example of a
> locale-neutral data structure for monetary values.
> But this structure alone does not appear to address differences in decimal
> symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, or digit shapes. It does
> provide a mechanism to separately specify the units, and the example uses
> an ISO-4217 currency code, both of which we agree are good ideas. Is there a
> broad standard (beyond just monetary) for addressing the other
> symbol/representation issues you raised that we can address briefly in our
> best practice? Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral
> approach? Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
> numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your example)?
>
> -Annette
>
>
> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> > [raised by aphillips]
> >
> > https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
> >
> > Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
> >
> > > Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer applications
> > to work accurately with things like dates, currencies and numbers that
> > may look similar but have different meanings in different locales.
> >
> > But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
> > representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in a
> > locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing the string
> > "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the following is strongly
> > preferred:
> >
> > ```
> > "price" {
> >    "value": 2000.00,
> >    "currency": "EUR"
> > }
> > ```
> >
> > The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
> > excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
> >
> > Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping symbol,
> > number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's because there can
> > be wide variation (sometimes open to misinterpretation) that sending a
> > locale neutral format is preferred for data values. Note also btw that
> > the position of the currency symbol is dependent on the locale. In
> > France it would be normal to write 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
> > Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
> >
> >
>
> --
> Annette Greiner
> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>

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Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Annette Greiner
Hi Addison,

Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I am
still missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as to how to
represent the "locale-neutral" data so that it can most easily be made
locale specific by existing tools. You mention "pre-made standards for
the basic data types". Is there a recommended list we could reference?

Thanks for your help!
-Annette

On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:

> Hi Annette,
>
> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of the WG.
>
> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the Internet in general. One familiar format referenced by your document, for example, is XML Schema. While the representations of numbers, dates, and the like in XML Schema would be "more appropriate" for some languages/locales than others if given as plain text, what distinguishes them is that they are all machine readable and intended to be read by machines for later processing. The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the data's consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific separators (such as decimal separators) over other, more localized values. Save for "free text" (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral and these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so forth.
>
> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course, covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon), we have many different common measurement units defined internally. To transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to construct our own data schemas and identifiers. There are profoundly many ways to measure shoes, dresses, auto parts, hats, drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a nightmare to have to deal with localized presentation formats on top of that.
>
> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and these are what are needed to build almost any data structure necessary for global interchange of data.
>
> Does that make sense?
>
> Addison
>
> Addison Phillips
> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
> Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>
> Internationalization is not a feature.
> It is an architecture.
>
>
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>> Cc: www International <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
>> representation #187
>>
>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
>>
>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice document, but
>> we would like some clarification of the practice of locale neutrality. You
>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol, grouping symbol,
>> number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you give an example of a
>> locale-neutral data structure for monetary values.
>> But this structure alone does not appear to address differences in decimal
>> symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, or digit shapes. It does
>> provide a mechanism to separately specify the units, and the example uses
>> an ISO-4217 currency code, both of which we agree are good ideas. Is there a
>> broad standard (beyond just monetary) for addressing the other
>> symbol/representation issues you raised that we can address briefly in our
>> best practice? Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral
>> approach? Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
>> numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your example)?
>>
>> -Annette
>>
>>
>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> [raised by aphillips]
>>>
>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>
>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
>>>
>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer applications
>>> to work accurately with things like dates, currencies and numbers that
>>> may look similar but have different meanings in different locales.
>>>
>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in a
>>> locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing the string
>>> "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the following is strongly
>>> preferred:
>>>
>>> ```
>>> "price" {
>>>     "value": 2000.00,
>>>     "currency": "EUR"
>>> }
>>> ```
>>>
>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
>>> excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
>>>
>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping symbol,
>>> number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's because there can
>>> be wide variation (sometimes open to misinterpretation) that sending a
>>> locale neutral format is preferred for data values. Note also btw that
>>> the position of the currency symbol is dependent on the locale. In
>>> France it would be normal to write 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> Annette Greiner
>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>

--
Annette Greiner
NERSC Data and Analytics Services
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory


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Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Phil Archer-4
I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3. You can
see the results at
http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata

This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value of
the xsd datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for it to be
an amendment rather than a whole new one - I hope.

This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have not
moved the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the editors who may
want to make further changes - or argue for it to be left where it is,
or add references from the formats section or, or, or...

I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447

Phil.

[1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02

On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:

> Dear Ishida,
>
> This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to ask your
> opinion about two of our proposals:
>
> 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3 [2], or
> 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section 8.8 Data Formats
> [3] to discuss the relevance of having local-neutral representations.
>
> We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed that we
> won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new BP and to collect
> feedback from the community.
>
> Thanks a lot!
> DWBP editors
>
> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
> 2016Jul/0028.html
> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
> [4] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.html
>
>
> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>:
>
>> Hi Addison,
>>
>> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I am still
>> missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as to how to represent
>> the "locale-neutral" data so that it can most easily be made locale
>> specific by existing tools. You mention "pre-made standards for the basic
>> data types". Is there a recommended list we could reference?
>>
>> Thanks for your help!
>> -Annette
>>
>>
>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Annette,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of the WG.
>>>
>>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the Internet in
>>> general. One familiar format referenced by your document, for example, is
>>> XML Schema. While the representations of numbers, dates, and the like in
>>> XML Schema would be "more appropriate" for some languages/locales than
>>> others if given as plain text, what distinguishes them is that they are all
>>> machine readable and intended to be read by machines for later processing.
>>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the data's
>>> consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific separators (such as
>>> decimal separators) over other, more localized values. Save for "free text"
>>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral and these
>>> include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so forth.
>>>
>>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course, covered
>>> fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon), we have many
>>> different common measurement units defined internally. To transmit these in
>>> a locale-neutral manner, we need to construct our own data schemas and
>>> identifiers. There are profoundly many ways to measure shoes, dresses, auto
>>> parts, hats, drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a nightmare to
>>> have to deal with localized presentation formats on top of that.
>>>
>>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and these are
>>> what are needed to build almost any data structure necessary for global
>>> interchange of data.
>>>
>>> Does that make sense?
>>>
>>> Addison
>>>
>>> Addison Phillips
>>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
>>> Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>
>>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>>> It is an architecture.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
>>>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>>>> Cc: www International <[hidden email]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
>>>> representation #187
>>>>
>>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
>>>>
>>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice document,
>>>> but
>>>> we would like some clarification of the practice of locale neutrality.
>>>> You
>>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol, grouping symbol,
>>>> number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you give an example
>>>> of a
>>>> locale-neutral data structure for monetary values.
>>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address differences in
>>>> decimal
>>>> symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, or digit shapes. It
>>>> does
>>>> provide a mechanism to separately specify the units, and the example uses
>>>> an ISO-4217 currency code, both of which we agree are good ideas. Is
>>>> there a
>>>> broad standard (beyond just monetary) for addressing the other
>>>> symbol/representation issues you raised that we can address briefly in
>>>> our
>>>> best practice? Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral
>>>> approach? Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
>>>> numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your example)?
>>>>
>>>> -Annette
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> [raised by aphillips]
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>
>>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
>>>>>
>>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer applications
>>>>>>
>>>>> to work accurately with things like dates, currencies and numbers that
>>>>> may look similar but have different meanings in different locales.
>>>>>
>>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
>>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in a
>>>>> locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing the string
>>>>> "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the following is strongly
>>>>> preferred:
>>>>>
>>>>> ```
>>>>> "price" {
>>>>>     "value": 2000.00,
>>>>>     "currency": "EUR"
>>>>> }
>>>>> ```
>>>>>
>>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
>>>>> excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping symbol,
>>>>> number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's because there can
>>>>> be wide variation (sometimes open to misinterpretation) that sending a
>>>>> locale neutral format is preferred for data values. Note also btw that
>>>>> the position of the currency symbol is dependent on the locale. In
>>>>> France it would be normal to write 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>>
>>>>
>> --
>> Annette Greiner
>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>
>>
>>
>
>

--


Phil Archer
W3C Data Activity Lead
http://www.w3.org/2013/data/

http://philarcher.org
+44 (0)7887 767755
@philarcher1

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RE: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Phillips, Addison-2
Hi Phil,

Thanks for starting on this. I think the pull request is a good start. I have some comments on it.

My main concern is that this BP is really backwards. It recommends to "locale parameter metadata" and then says that the simplest way to do this is to use locale-neutral formats. The recommendation should be more like "use locale-neutral formats or provide locale/language information where that's not possible". The pull request captures the use of locale-neutral, but doesn't really explain about when to provide locale and language information.

I would change this:

--
<p class="practicedesc">Provide metadata about locale parameters (date, time, and number formats, language).</p>
--

To say:

--
<p class="practicedesc">Use locale-neutral data structures and values, or, where that is not possible, provide metadata about the locale used by data values.</p>
--

I would change:

--
<p>The simplest method is to use local-neutral representations of the actual data, and then add metadata to provide relevant locale information. For example, rather than storing "€2000.00" as a string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such as:</p>
--

To say:

--
<p>Most common data representations are locale neutral. For example, XML Schema types such as xsd:integer and xsd: date are intended for locale-neutral data interchange. Using locale-neutral representations allows the data values to be processed accurately without complex parsing or misinterpretation and also allows the data to be presented in the format most comfortable for the consumer of the data. For example, rather than storing "€2000,00" as a string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such as:</p>
--

Also, note the misspelling of "locale-neutral" in the pull request.

I would then go on to add some text about when locale parameters are needed. Something like:

--
Some datasets contain values that are not or cannot be rendered into a locale-neutral format. This is particularly true of any natural language text values. For each data field that can contain locale affected or natural language text, there should be an associated language tag used to indicate the language and locale of the data. This locale information can be used in parsing the data or to ensure proper presentation and processing of the value by the consumer.
--

(Sorry for not generating a pull request of my own)

Addison

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:37 AM
> To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>; Annette Greiner
> <[hidden email]>
> Cc: Phillips, Addison <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; public-dwbp-
> [hidden email]; www International <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
> representation #187
>
> I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3. You can see the
> results at
> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>
> This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value of the xsd
> datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for it to be an amendment
> rather than a whole new one - I hope.
>
> This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have not moved
> the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the editors who may want to
> make further changes - or argue for it to be left where it is, or add references
> from the formats section or, or, or...
>
> I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
>
> Phil.
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
>
> On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
> > Dear Ishida,
> >
> > This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to ask
> > your opinion about two of our proposals:
> >
> > 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3 [2],
> > or 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section 8.8 Data
> > Formats [3] to discuss the relevance of having local-neutral representations.
> >
> > We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed that
> > we won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new BP and to
> > collect feedback from the community.
> >
> > Thanks a lot!
> > DWBP editors
> >
> > [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
> > 2016Jul/0028.html
> > [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
> > [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
> > [4]
> > https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.html
> >
> >
> > 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>:
> >
> >> Hi Addison,
> >>
> >> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I am
> >> still missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as to how
> >> to represent the "locale-neutral" data so that it can most easily be
> >> made locale specific by existing tools. You mention "pre-made
> >> standards for the basic data types". Is there a recommended list we could
> reference?
> >>
> >> Thanks for your help!
> >> -Annette
> >>
> >>
> >> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Annette,
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of the WG.
> >>>
> >>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the Internet
> >>> in general. One familiar format referenced by your document, for
> >>> example, is XML Schema. While the representations of numbers, dates,
> >>> and the like in XML Schema would be "more appropriate" for some
> >>> languages/locales than others if given as plain text, what
> >>> distinguishes them is that they are all machine readable and intended to
> be read by machines for later processing.
> >>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the data's
> >>> consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific separators (such
> >>> as decimal separators) over other, more localized values. Save for "free
> text"
> >>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral and
> >>> these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so forth.
> >>>
> >>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course,
> >>> covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon), we
> >>> have many different common measurement units defined internally. To
> >>> transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to construct our
> >>> own data schemas and identifiers. There are profoundly many ways to
> >>> measure shoes, dresses, auto parts, hats, drone propellers, and so
> >>> forth. But it would be a nightmare to have to deal with localized
> presentation formats on top of that.
> >>>
> >>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and these
> >>> are what are needed to build almost any data structure necessary for
> >>> global interchange of data.
> >>>
> >>> Does that make sense?
> >>>
> >>> Addison
> >>>
> >>> Addison Phillips
> >>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon) Chair (W3C I18N WG)
> >>>
> >>> Internationalization is not a feature.
> >>> It is an architecture.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
> >>>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> >>>> Cc: www International <[hidden email]>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
> >>>> locale-neutral representation #187
> >>>>
> >>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
> >>>>
> >>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice
> >>>> document, but we would like some clarification of the practice of
> >>>> locale neutrality.
> >>>> You
> >>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol, grouping
> >>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you give
> >>>> an example of a locale-neutral data structure for monetary values.
> >>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address differences in
> >>>> decimal symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, or
> >>>> digit shapes. It does provide a mechanism to separately specify the
> >>>> units, and the example uses an ISO-4217 currency code, both of
> >>>> which we agree are good ideas. Is there a broad standard (beyond
> >>>> just monetary) for addressing the other symbol/representation
> >>>> issues you raised that we can address briefly in our best practice?
> >>>> Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral approach?
> >>>> Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal numbers
> >>>> (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your example)?
> >>>>
> >>>> -Annette
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> [raised by aphillips]
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer applications
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> to work accurately with things like dates, currencies and numbers
> >>>>> that may look similar but have different meanings in different locales.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
> >>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in a
> >>>>> locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing the
> >>>>> string "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the following
> >>>>> is strongly
> >>>>> preferred:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>> "price" {
> >>>>>     "value": 2000.00,
> >>>>>     "currency": "EUR"
> >>>>> }
> >>>>> ```
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
> >>>>> excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping
> >>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's because
> >>>>> there can be wide variation (sometimes open to misinterpretation)
> >>>>> that sending a locale neutral format is preferred for data values.
> >>>>> Note also btw that the position of the currency symbol is
> >>>>> dependent on the locale. In France it would be normal to write
> 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
> >>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>> Annette Greiner
> >>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
> >>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >> --
> >> Annette Greiner
> >> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
> >> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> --
>
>
> Phil Archer
> W3C Data Activity Lead
> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>
> http://philarcher.org
> +44 (0)7887 767755
> @philarcher1
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Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Annette Greiner
In reply to this post by Phil Archer-4
Thanks, Phil, for giving this a try. I think in light of Addison's
comments, we will need to make a more substantial change. We had
discussed in today's call changing the sense of the BP to primarily
suggest using locale-neutral representations and to offer metadata only
as a fallback if that wasn't workable. The version at
http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata goes a
little further in that direction, but even that doesn't go far enough. I
think we need to write a new BP, "use locale-neutral data
representations" and only mention the metadata approach in the
implementation section as a fallback. There are usable pieces of text in
the three versions of BP3 floating around, though I think this calls for
a little new text as well, to get the angle right.

-Annette


On 8/19/16 8:37 AM, Phil Archer wrote:

> I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3. You
> can see the results at
> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>
> This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value of
> the xsd datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for it to be
> an amendment rather than a whole new one - I hope.
>
> This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have not
> moved the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the editors who
> may want to make further changes - or argue for it to be left where it
> is, or add references from the formats section or, or, or...
>
> I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
>
> Phil.
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
>
> On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>> Dear Ishida,
>>
>> This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to ask your
>> opinion about two of our proposals:
>>
>> 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3 [2], or
>> 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section 8.8 Data
>> Formats
>> [3] to discuss the relevance of having local-neutral representations.
>>
>> We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed that we
>> won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new BP and to
>> collect
>> feedback from the community.
>>
>> Thanks a lot!
>> DWBP editors
>>
>> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
>> 2016Jul/0028.html
>> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
>> [4]
>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.html
>>
>>
>> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>:
>>
>>> Hi Addison,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I am
>>> still
>>> missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as to how to
>>> represent
>>> the "locale-neutral" data so that it can most easily be made locale
>>> specific by existing tools. You mention "pre-made standards for the
>>> basic
>>> data types". Is there a recommended list we could reference?
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help!
>>> -Annette
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Annette,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of the WG.
>>>>
>>>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the Internet in
>>>> general. One familiar format referenced by your document, for
>>>> example, is
>>>> XML Schema. While the representations of numbers, dates, and the
>>>> like in
>>>> XML Schema would be "more appropriate" for some languages/locales than
>>>> others if given as plain text, what distinguishes them is that they
>>>> are all
>>>> machine readable and intended to be read by machines for later
>>>> processing.
>>>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the data's
>>>> consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific separators (such as
>>>> decimal separators) over other, more localized values. Save for
>>>> "free text"
>>>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral and
>>>> these
>>>> include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so forth.
>>>>
>>>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course, covered
>>>> fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon), we have many
>>>> different common measurement units defined internally. To transmit
>>>> these in
>>>> a locale-neutral manner, we need to construct our own data schemas and
>>>> identifiers. There are profoundly many ways to measure shoes,
>>>> dresses, auto
>>>> parts, hats, drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a
>>>> nightmare to
>>>> have to deal with localized presentation formats on top of that.
>>>>
>>>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and these
>>>> are
>>>> what are needed to build almost any data structure necessary for
>>>> global
>>>> interchange of data.
>>>>
>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>>
>>>> Addison
>>>>
>>>> Addison Phillips
>>>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon)
>>>> Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>>
>>>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>> It is an architecture.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
>>>>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>>>>> Cc: www International <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
>>>>> locale-neutral
>>>>> representation #187
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
>>>>>
>>>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice
>>>>> document,
>>>>> but
>>>>> we would like some clarification of the practice of locale
>>>>> neutrality.
>>>>> You
>>>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol, grouping
>>>>> symbol,
>>>>> number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you give an
>>>>> example
>>>>> of a
>>>>> locale-neutral data structure for monetary values.
>>>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address differences in
>>>>> decimal
>>>>> symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, or digit
>>>>> shapes. It
>>>>> does
>>>>> provide a mechanism to separately specify the units, and the
>>>>> example uses
>>>>> an ISO-4217 currency code, both of which we agree are good ideas. Is
>>>>> there a
>>>>> broad standard (beyond just monetary) for addressing the other
>>>>> symbol/representation issues you raised that we can address
>>>>> briefly in
>>>>> our
>>>>> best practice? Do you consider SI units consistent with a
>>>>> locale-neutral
>>>>> approach? Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
>>>>> numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your example)?
>>>>>
>>>>> -Annette
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> [raised by aphillips]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer applications
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> to work accurately with things like dates, currencies and numbers
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> may look similar but have different meanings in different locales.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
>>>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in a
>>>>>> locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing the
>>>>>> string
>>>>>> "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the following is
>>>>>> strongly
>>>>>> preferred:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ```
>>>>>> "price" {
>>>>>>     "value": 2000.00,
>>>>>>     "currency": "EUR"
>>>>>> }
>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
>>>>>> excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping
>>>>>> symbol,
>>>>>> number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's because there can
>>>>>> be wide variation (sometimes open to misinterpretation) that
>>>>>> sending a
>>>>>> locale neutral format is preferred for data values. Note also btw
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> the position of the currency symbol is dependent on the locale. In
>>>>>> France it would be normal to write 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>>>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>> --
>>> Annette Greiner
>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

--
Annette Greiner
NERSC Data and Analytics Services
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory


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Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Deirdre Lee
In reply to this post by Phillips, Addison-2
HI,

Thank you for your comments Addison. I think they make sense and should
be straight-forward to incorporate.

The title of the BP should probably also be updated to something like
'Provide locale-neutral data'

Phil and DWBP editors, in Friday's meeting we also agreed to move BP3 to
the Data Formats section from the Metadata section, which would make it
BP14, right?

Kind regards,

Deirdre



On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips, Addison wrote:

> Hi Phil,
>
> Thanks for starting on this. I think the pull request is a good start. I have some comments on it.
>
> My main concern is that this BP is really backwards. It recommends to "locale parameter metadata" and then says that the simplest way to do this is to use locale-neutral formats. The recommendation should be more like "use locale-neutral formats or provide locale/language information where that's not possible". The pull request captures the use of locale-neutral, but doesn't really explain about when to provide locale and language information.
>
> I would change this:
>
> --
> <p class="practicedesc">Provide metadata about locale parameters (date, time, and number formats, language).</p>
> --
>
> To say:
>
> --
> <p class="practicedesc">Use locale-neutral data structures and values, or, where that is not possible, provide metadata about the locale used by data values.</p>
> --
>
> I would change:
>
> --
> <p>The simplest method is to use local-neutral representations of the actual data, and then add metadata to provide relevant locale information. For example, rather than storing "€2000.00" as a string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such as:</p>
> --
>
> To say:
>
> --
> <p>Most common data representations are locale neutral. For example, XML Schema types such as xsd:integer and xsd: date are intended for locale-neutral data interchange. Using locale-neutral representations allows the data values to be processed accurately without complex parsing or misinterpretation and also allows the data to be presented in the format most comfortable for the consumer of the data. For example, rather than storing "€2000,00" as a string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such as:</p>
> --
>
> Also, note the misspelling of "locale-neutral" in the pull request.
>
> I would then go on to add some text about when locale parameters are needed. Something like:
>
> --
> Some datasets contain values that are not or cannot be rendered into a locale-neutral format. This is particularly true of any natural language text values. For each data field that can contain locale affected or natural language text, there should be an associated language tag used to indicate the language and locale of the data. This locale information can be used in parsing the data or to ensure proper presentation and processing of the value by the consumer.
> --
>
> (Sorry for not generating a pull request of my own)
>
> Addison
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:37 AM
>> To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>; Annette Greiner
>> <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: Phillips, Addison <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; public-dwbp-
>> [hidden email]; www International <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
>> representation #187
>>
>> I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3. You can see the
>> results at
>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>
>> This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value of the xsd
>> datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for it to be an amendment
>> rather than a whole new one - I hope.
>>
>> This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have not moved
>> the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the editors who may want to
>> make further changes - or argue for it to be left where it is, or add references
>> from the formats section or, or, or...
>>
>> I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
>>
>> Phil.
>>
>> [1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
>>
>> On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>>> Dear Ishida,
>>>
>>> This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to ask
>>> your opinion about two of our proposals:
>>>
>>> 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3 [2],
>>> or 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section 8.8 Data
>>> Formats [3] to discuss the relevance of having local-neutral representations.
>>>
>>> We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed that
>>> we won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new BP and to
>>> collect feedback from the community.
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot!
>>> DWBP editors
>>>
>>> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
>>> 2016Jul/0028.html
>>> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
>>> [4]
>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.html
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>>> Hi Addison,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I am
>>>> still missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as to how
>>>> to represent the "locale-neutral" data so that it can most easily be
>>>> made locale specific by existing tools. You mention "pre-made
>>>> standards for the basic data types". Is there a recommended list we could
>> reference?
>>>> Thanks for your help!
>>>> -Annette
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Annette,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of the WG.
>>>>>
>>>>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the Internet
>>>>> in general. One familiar format referenced by your document, for
>>>>> example, is XML Schema. While the representations of numbers, dates,
>>>>> and the like in XML Schema would be "more appropriate" for some
>>>>> languages/locales than others if given as plain text, what
>>>>> distinguishes them is that they are all machine readable and intended to
>> be read by machines for later processing.
>>>>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the data's
>>>>> consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific separators (such
>>>>> as decimal separators) over other, more localized values. Save for "free
>> text"
>>>>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral and
>>>>> these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so forth.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course,
>>>>> covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon), we
>>>>> have many different common measurement units defined internally. To
>>>>> transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to construct our
>>>>> own data schemas and identifiers. There are profoundly many ways to
>>>>> measure shoes, dresses, auto parts, hats, drone propellers, and so
>>>>> forth. But it would be a nightmare to have to deal with localized
>> presentation formats on top of that.
>>>>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and these
>>>>> are what are needed to build almost any data structure necessary for
>>>>> global interchange of data.
>>>>>
>>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>>>
>>>>> Addison
>>>>>
>>>>> Addison Phillips
>>>>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon) Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>>>
>>>>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>> It is an architecture.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
>>>>>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>>>>>> Cc: www International <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
>>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice
>>>>>> document, but we would like some clarification of the practice of
>>>>>> locale neutrality.
>>>>>> You
>>>>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol, grouping
>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you give
>>>>>> an example of a locale-neutral data structure for monetary values.
>>>>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address differences in
>>>>>> decimal symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, or
>>>>>> digit shapes. It does provide a mechanism to separately specify the
>>>>>> units, and the example uses an ISO-4217 currency code, both of
>>>>>> which we agree are good ideas. Is there a broad standard (beyond
>>>>>> just monetary) for addressing the other symbol/representation
>>>>>> issues you raised that we can address briefly in our best practice?
>>>>>> Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral approach?
>>>>>> Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal numbers
>>>>>> (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your example)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Annette
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [raised by aphillips]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer applications
>>>>>>> to work accurately with things like dates, currencies and numbers
>>>>>>> that may look similar but have different meanings in different locales.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
>>>>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in a
>>>>>>> locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing the
>>>>>>> string "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the following
>>>>>>> is strongly
>>>>>>> preferred:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>> "price" {
>>>>>>>      "value": 2000.00,
>>>>>>>      "currency": "EUR"
>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
>>>>>>> excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping
>>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's because
>>>>>>> there can be wide variation (sometimes open to misinterpretation)
>>>>>>> that sending a locale neutral format is preferred for data values.
>>>>>>> Note also btw that the position of the currency symbol is
>>>>>>> dependent on the locale. In France it would be normal to write
>> 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>>>>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Phil Archer
>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>
>> http://philarcher.org
>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>> @philarcher1

--
------------------------------------
Deirdre Lee, CEO & Founder
Derilinx - Linked & Open Data Solutions
 
Web:      www.derilinx.com
Email:    [hidden email]
Address:  11/12 Baggot Court, Dublin 2, D02 F891
Tel:      +353 (0)1 254 4316
Mob:      +353 (0)87 417 2318
Linkedin: ie.linkedin.com/in/leedeirdre/
Twitter:  @deirdrelee


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Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Phil Archer-4
Dear all,

I have taken further steps on this. The result can be seen at
http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata

1. Addision's text used more or less verbatim;
1a. taken account of Annette's suggestion;
1b. replaced inline links to BCP47 and CLDR with references
2. title of the BP changed to Use locale-neutral data representations
3. moved to Data Formats section as resolved in WG meeting on Friday;
4. added R-FormatMachineRead to list of evidence and thereby updated the
UCR cross matching;
5. updated the Challenges SVG diagram;
6. updated my Pull request.

NB, I *retained* the old ID for the BP so that any links to
#LocaleParametersMetadata will still work. I know there are some of
these, for example, in the Share-PSI project.

HTH

Phil.



On 22/08/2016 08:52, Deirdre Lee wrote:

> HI,
>
> Thank you for your comments Addison. I think they make sense and should
> be straight-forward to incorporate.
>
> The title of the BP should probably also be updated to something like
> 'Provide locale-neutral data'
>
> Phil and DWBP editors, in Friday's meeting we also agreed to move BP3 to
> the Data Formats section from the Metadata section, which would make it
> BP14, right?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Deirdre
>
>
>
> On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>> Hi Phil,
>>
>> Thanks for starting on this. I think the pull request is a good start.
>> I have some comments on it.
>>
>> My main concern is that this BP is really backwards. It recommends to
>> "locale parameter metadata" and then says that the simplest way to do
>> this is to use locale-neutral formats. The recommendation should be
>> more like "use locale-neutral formats or provide locale/language
>> information where that's not possible". The pull request captures the
>> use of locale-neutral, but doesn't really explain about when to
>> provide locale and language information.
>>
>> I would change this:
>>
>> --
>> <p class="practicedesc">Provide metadata about locale parameters
>> (date, time, and number formats, language).</p>
>> --
>>
>> To say:
>>
>> --
>> <p class="practicedesc">Use locale-neutral data structures and values,
>> or, where that is not possible, provide metadata about the locale used
>> by data values.</p>
>> --
>>
>> I would change:
>>
>> --
>> <p>The simplest method is to use local-neutral representations of the
>> actual data, and then add metadata to provide relevant locale
>> information. For example, rather than storing "€2000.00" as a string,
>> it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such as:</p>
>> --
>>
>> To say:
>>
>> --
>> <p>Most common data representations are locale neutral. For example,
>> XML Schema types such as xsd:integer and xsd: date are intended for
>> locale-neutral data interchange. Using locale-neutral representations
>> allows the data values to be processed accurately without complex
>> parsing or misinterpretation and also allows the data to be presented
>> in the format most comfortable for the consumer of the data. For
>> example, rather than storing "€2000,00" as a string, it's strongly
>> preferred to exchange a data structure such as:</p>
>> --
>>
>> Also, note the misspelling of "locale-neutral" in the pull request.
>>
>> I would then go on to add some text about when locale parameters are
>> needed. Something like:
>>
>> --
>> Some datasets contain values that are not or cannot be rendered into a
>> locale-neutral format. This is particularly true of any natural
>> language text values. For each data field that can contain locale
>> affected or natural language text, there should be an associated
>> language tag used to indicate the language and locale of the data.
>> This locale information can be used in parsing the data or to ensure
>> proper presentation and processing of the value by the consumer.
>> --
>>
>> (Sorry for not generating a pull request of my own)
>>
>> Addison
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:37 AM
>>> To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>; Annette Greiner
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> Cc: Phillips, Addison <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; public-dwbp-
>>> [hidden email]; www International <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
>>> representation #187
>>>
>>> I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3. You
>>> can see the
>>> results at
>>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>
>>> This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value of
>>> the xsd
>>> datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for it to be an
>>> amendment
>>> rather than a whole new one - I hope.
>>>
>>> This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have not
>>> moved
>>> the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the editors who may
>>> want to
>>> make further changes - or argue for it to be left where it is, or add
>>> references
>>> from the formats section or, or, or...
>>>
>>> I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
>>>
>>> Phil.
>>>
>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
>>>
>>> On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>>>> Dear Ishida,
>>>>
>>>> This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to ask
>>>> your opinion about two of our proposals:
>>>>
>>>> 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3 [2],
>>>> or 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section 8.8 Data
>>>> Formats [3] to discuss the relevance of having local-neutral
>>>> representations.
>>>>
>>>> We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed that
>>>> we won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new BP and to
>>>> collect feedback from the community.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks a lot!
>>>> DWBP editors
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
>>>> 2016Jul/0028.html
>>>> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
>>>> [4]
>>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Addison,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I am
>>>>> still missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as to how
>>>>> to represent the "locale-neutral" data so that it can most easily be
>>>>> made locale specific by existing tools. You mention "pre-made
>>>>> standards for the basic data types". Is there a recommended list we
>>>>> could
>>> reference?
>>>>> Thanks for your help!
>>>>> -Annette
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Annette,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of the
>>>>>> WG.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the Internet
>>>>>> in general. One familiar format referenced by your document, for
>>>>>> example, is XML Schema. While the representations of numbers, dates,
>>>>>> and the like in XML Schema would be "more appropriate" for some
>>>>>> languages/locales than others if given as plain text, what
>>>>>> distinguishes them is that they are all machine readable and
>>>>>> intended to
>>> be read by machines for later processing.
>>>>>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the data's
>>>>>> consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific separators (such
>>>>>> as decimal separators) over other, more localized values. Save for
>>>>>> "free
>>> text"
>>>>>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral and
>>>>>> these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so forth.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course,
>>>>>> covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon), we
>>>>>> have many different common measurement units defined internally. To
>>>>>> transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to construct our
>>>>>> own data schemas and identifiers. There are profoundly many ways to
>>>>>> measure shoes, dresses, auto parts, hats, drone propellers, and so
>>>>>> forth. But it would be a nightmare to have to deal with localized
>>> presentation formats on top of that.
>>>>>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and these
>>>>>> are what are needed to build almost any data structure necessary for
>>>>>> global interchange of data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Addison
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Addison Phillips
>>>>>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon) Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>>> It is an architecture.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
>>>>>>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>>>>>>> Cc: www International <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
>>>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice
>>>>>>> document, but we would like some clarification of the practice of
>>>>>>> locale neutrality.
>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol, grouping
>>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you give
>>>>>>> an example of a locale-neutral data structure for monetary values.
>>>>>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address differences in
>>>>>>> decimal symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, or
>>>>>>> digit shapes. It does provide a mechanism to separately specify the
>>>>>>> units, and the example uses an ISO-4217 currency code, both of
>>>>>>> which we agree are good ideas. Is there a broad standard (beyond
>>>>>>> just monetary) for addressing the other symbol/representation
>>>>>>> issues you raised that we can address briefly in our best practice?
>>>>>>> Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral approach?
>>>>>>> Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal numbers
>>>>>>> (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your example)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -Annette
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [raised by aphillips]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer applications
>>>>>>>> to work accurately with things like dates, currencies and numbers
>>>>>>>> that may look similar but have different meanings in different
>>>>>>>> locales.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
>>>>>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in a
>>>>>>>> locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing the
>>>>>>>> string "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the following
>>>>>>>> is strongly
>>>>>>>> preferred:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>> "price" {
>>>>>>>>      "value": 2000.00,
>>>>>>>>      "currency": "EUR"
>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
>>>>>>>> excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping
>>>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's because
>>>>>>>> there can be wide variation (sometimes open to misinterpretation)
>>>>>>>> that sending a locale neutral format is preferred for data values.
>>>>>>>> Note also btw that the position of the currency symbol is
>>>>>>>> dependent on the locale. In France it would be normal to write
>>> 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>>>>>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>>>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil Archer
>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>
>>> http://philarcher.org
>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>> @philarcher1
>

--


Phil Archer
W3C Data Activity Lead
http://www.w3.org/2013/data/

http://philarcher.org
+44 (0)7887 767755
@philarcher1

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Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Deirdre Lee
Looks good, thanks Phil.


On 22/08/2016 10:33, Phil Archer wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I have taken further steps on this. The result can be seen at
> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>
> 1. Addision's text used more or less verbatim;
> 1a. taken account of Annette's suggestion;
> 1b. replaced inline links to BCP47 and CLDR with references
> 2. title of the BP changed to Use locale-neutral data representations
> 3. moved to Data Formats section as resolved in WG meeting on Friday;
> 4. added R-FormatMachineRead to list of evidence and thereby updated
> the UCR cross matching;
> 5. updated the Challenges SVG diagram;
> 6. updated my Pull request.
>
> NB, I *retained* the old ID for the BP so that any links to
> #LocaleParametersMetadata will still work. I know there are some of
> these, for example, in the Share-PSI project.
>
> HTH
>
> Phil.
>
>
>
> On 22/08/2016 08:52, Deirdre Lee wrote:
>> HI,
>>
>> Thank you for your comments Addison. I think they make sense and should
>> be straight-forward to incorporate.
>>
>> The title of the BP should probably also be updated to something like
>> 'Provide locale-neutral data'
>>
>> Phil and DWBP editors, in Friday's meeting we also agreed to move BP3 to
>> the Data Formats section from the Metadata section, which would make it
>> BP14, right?
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Deirdre
>>
>>
>>
>> On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>> Hi Phil,
>>>
>>> Thanks for starting on this. I think the pull request is a good start.
>>> I have some comments on it.
>>>
>>> My main concern is that this BP is really backwards. It recommends to
>>> "locale parameter metadata" and then says that the simplest way to do
>>> this is to use locale-neutral formats. The recommendation should be
>>> more like "use locale-neutral formats or provide locale/language
>>> information where that's not possible". The pull request captures the
>>> use of locale-neutral, but doesn't really explain about when to
>>> provide locale and language information.
>>>
>>> I would change this:
>>>
>>> --
>>> <p class="practicedesc">Provide metadata about locale parameters
>>> (date, time, and number formats, language).</p>
>>> --
>>>
>>> To say:
>>>
>>> --
>>> <p class="practicedesc">Use locale-neutral data structures and values,
>>> or, where that is not possible, provide metadata about the locale used
>>> by data values.</p>
>>> --
>>>
>>> I would change:
>>>
>>> --
>>> <p>The simplest method is to use local-neutral representations of the
>>> actual data, and then add metadata to provide relevant locale
>>> information. For example, rather than storing "€2000.00" as a string,
>>> it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such as:</p>
>>> --
>>>
>>> To say:
>>>
>>> --
>>> <p>Most common data representations are locale neutral. For example,
>>> XML Schema types such as xsd:integer and xsd: date are intended for
>>> locale-neutral data interchange. Using locale-neutral representations
>>> allows the data values to be processed accurately without complex
>>> parsing or misinterpretation and also allows the data to be presented
>>> in the format most comfortable for the consumer of the data. For
>>> example, rather than storing "€2000,00" as a string, it's strongly
>>> preferred to exchange a data structure such as:</p>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Also, note the misspelling of "locale-neutral" in the pull request.
>>>
>>> I would then go on to add some text about when locale parameters are
>>> needed. Something like:
>>>
>>> --
>>> Some datasets contain values that are not or cannot be rendered into a
>>> locale-neutral format. This is particularly true of any natural
>>> language text values. For each data field that can contain locale
>>> affected or natural language text, there should be an associated
>>> language tag used to indicate the language and locale of the data.
>>> This locale information can be used in parsing the data or to ensure
>>> proper presentation and processing of the value by the consumer.
>>> --
>>>
>>> (Sorry for not generating a pull request of my own)
>>>
>>> Addison
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:37 AM
>>>> To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>; Annette Greiner
>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>> Cc: Phillips, Addison <[hidden email]>; [hidden email];
>>>> public-dwbp-
>>>> [hidden email]; www International <[hidden email]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
>>>> representation #187
>>>>
>>>> I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3. You
>>>> can see the
>>>> results at
>>>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>
>>>> This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value of
>>>> the xsd
>>>> datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for it to be an
>>>> amendment
>>>> rather than a whole new one - I hope.
>>>>
>>>> This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have not
>>>> moved
>>>> the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the editors who may
>>>> want to
>>>> make further changes - or argue for it to be left where it is, or add
>>>> references
>>>> from the formats section or, or, or...
>>>>
>>>> I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
>>>>
>>>> Phil.
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
>>>>
>>>> On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>>>>> Dear Ishida,
>>>>>
>>>>> This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to ask
>>>>> your opinion about two of our proposals:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3 [2],
>>>>> or 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section 8.8 Data
>>>>> Formats [3] to discuss the relevance of having local-neutral
>>>>> representations.
>>>>>
>>>>> We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed that
>>>>> we won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new BP and to
>>>>> collect feedback from the community.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks a lot!
>>>>> DWBP editors
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
>>>>> 2016Jul/0028.html
>>>>> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
>>>>> [4]
>>>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Addison,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I am
>>>>>> still missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as to how
>>>>>> to represent the "locale-neutral" data so that it can most easily be
>>>>>> made locale specific by existing tools. You mention "pre-made
>>>>>> standards for the basic data types". Is there a recommended list we
>>>>>> could
>>>> reference?
>>>>>> Thanks for your help!
>>>>>> -Annette
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Annette,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of the
>>>>>>> WG.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the Internet
>>>>>>> in general. One familiar format referenced by your document, for
>>>>>>> example, is XML Schema. While the representations of numbers,
>>>>>>> dates,
>>>>>>> and the like in XML Schema would be "more appropriate" for some
>>>>>>> languages/locales than others if given as plain text, what
>>>>>>> distinguishes them is that they are all machine readable and
>>>>>>> intended to
>>>> be read by machines for later processing.
>>>>>>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the data's
>>>>>>> consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific separators (such
>>>>>>> as decimal separators) over other, more localized values. Save for
>>>>>>> "free
>>>> text"
>>>>>>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral and
>>>>>>> these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so forth.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course,
>>>>>>> covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon), we
>>>>>>> have many different common measurement units defined internally. To
>>>>>>> transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to construct our
>>>>>>> own data schemas and identifiers. There are profoundly many ways to
>>>>>>> measure shoes, dresses, auto parts, hats, drone propellers, and so
>>>>>>> forth. But it would be a nightmare to have to deal with localized
>>>> presentation formats on top of that.
>>>>>>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and these
>>>>>>> are what are needed to build almost any data structure necessary
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> global interchange of data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Addison
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Addison Phillips
>>>>>>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon) Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>>>> It is an architecture.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
>>>>>>>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>>>>>>>> Cc: www International <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
>>>>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice
>>>>>>>> document, but we would like some clarification of the practice of
>>>>>>>> locale neutrality.
>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol, grouping
>>>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you
>>>>>>>> give
>>>>>>>> an example of a locale-neutral data structure for monetary values.
>>>>>>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address differences in
>>>>>>>> decimal symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, or
>>>>>>>> digit shapes. It does provide a mechanism to separately specify
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> units, and the example uses an ISO-4217 currency code, both of
>>>>>>>> which we agree are good ideas. Is there a broad standard (beyond
>>>>>>>> just monetary) for addressing the other symbol/representation
>>>>>>>> issues you raised that we can address briefly in our best
>>>>>>>> practice?
>>>>>>>> Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral
>>>>>>>> approach?
>>>>>>>> Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
>>>>>>>> numbers
>>>>>>>> (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your example)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -Annette
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [raised by aphillips]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer
>>>>>>>>> applications
>>>>>>>>> to work accurately with things like dates, currencies and numbers
>>>>>>>>> that may look similar but have different meanings in different
>>>>>>>>> locales.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
>>>>>>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in a
>>>>>>>>> locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing the
>>>>>>>>> string "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the following
>>>>>>>>> is strongly
>>>>>>>>> preferred:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>> "price" {
>>>>>>>>>      "value": 2000.00,
>>>>>>>>>      "currency": "EUR"
>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
>>>>>>>>> excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping
>>>>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's
>>>>>>>>> because
>>>>>>>>> there can be wide variation (sometimes open to misinterpretation)
>>>>>>>>> that sending a locale neutral format is preferred for data
>>>>>>>>> values.
>>>>>>>>> Note also btw that the position of the currency symbol is
>>>>>>>>> dependent on the locale. In France it would be normal to write
>>>> 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>>>>>>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>>>>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Phil Archer
>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>>
>>>> http://philarcher.org
>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>>> @philarcher1
>>
>

--
------------------------------------
Deirdre Lee, CEO & Founder
Derilinx - Linked & Open Data Solutions
 
Web:      www.derilinx.com
Email:    [hidden email]
Address:  11/12 Baggot Court, Dublin 2, D02 F891
Tel:      +353 (0)1 254 4316
Mob:      +353 (0)87 417 2318
Linkedin: ie.linkedin.com/in/leedeirdre/
Twitter:  @deirdrelee


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RE: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Phillips, Addison-2
In reply to this post by Phil Archer-4
Hi Phil,

This looks good. A few comments.

1. Rather than providing your own definition for 'locale', you might make use of the one we provide in LTLI [1].

2. The "why" is still missing something. I would suggest adding a new first paragraph explaining locale-neutral first. Something like:

--
Data values that are machine-readable and not specific to any particular language or culture are more durable and less open to misinterpretation than values that use one of the many different cultural representations. By using a locale-neutral format, systems avoid the need to establish specific interchange rules that vary according to the language or location of the user.

When the data is already in a locale-specific format, providing locale parameters... <rest of existing text>
--

Hope that helps,

Addison

[1] https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 2:34 AM
> To: Deirdre Lee <[hidden email]>; Phillips, Addison
> <[hidden email]>; Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>;
> Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; www International
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
> representation #187
>
> Dear all,
>
> I have taken further steps on this. The result can be seen at
> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>
> 1. Addision's text used more or less verbatim; 1a. taken account of Annette's
> suggestion; 1b. replaced inline links to BCP47 and CLDR with references 2.
> title of the BP changed to Use locale-neutral data representations 3. moved
> to Data Formats section as resolved in WG meeting on Friday; 4. added R-
> FormatMachineRead to list of evidence and thereby updated the UCR cross
> matching; 5. updated the Challenges SVG diagram; 6. updated my Pull
> request.
>
> NB, I *retained* the old ID for the BP so that any links to
> #LocaleParametersMetadata will still work. I know there are some of these,
> for example, in the Share-PSI project.
>
> HTH
>
> Phil.
>
>
>
> On 22/08/2016 08:52, Deirdre Lee wrote:
> > HI,
> >
> > Thank you for your comments Addison. I think they make sense and
> > should be straight-forward to incorporate.
> >
> > The title of the BP should probably also be updated to something like
> > 'Provide locale-neutral data'
> >
> > Phil and DWBP editors, in Friday's meeting we also agreed to move BP3
> > to the Data Formats section from the Metadata section, which would
> > make it BP14, right?
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Deirdre
> >
> >
> >
> > On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> >> Hi Phil,
> >>
> >> Thanks for starting on this. I think the pull request is a good start.
> >> I have some comments on it.
> >>
> >> My main concern is that this BP is really backwards. It recommends to
> >> "locale parameter metadata" and then says that the simplest way to do
> >> this is to use locale-neutral formats. The recommendation should be
> >> more like "use locale-neutral formats or provide locale/language
> >> information where that's not possible". The pull request captures the
> >> use of locale-neutral, but doesn't really explain about when to
> >> provide locale and language information.
> >>
> >> I would change this:
> >>
> >> --
> >> <p class="practicedesc">Provide metadata about locale parameters
> >> (date, time, and number formats, language).</p>
> >> --
> >>
> >> To say:
> >>
> >> --
> >> <p class="practicedesc">Use locale-neutral data structures and
> >> values, or, where that is not possible, provide metadata about the
> >> locale used by data values.</p>
> >> --
> >>
> >> I would change:
> >>
> >> --
> >> <p>The simplest method is to use local-neutral representations of the
> >> actual data, and then add metadata to provide relevant locale
> >> information. For example, rather than storing "€2000.00" as a string,
> >> it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such as:</p>
> >> --
> >>
> >> To say:
> >>
> >> --
> >> <p>Most common data representations are locale neutral. For example,
> >> XML Schema types such as xsd:integer and xsd: date are intended for
> >> locale-neutral data interchange. Using locale-neutral representations
> >> allows the data values to be processed accurately without complex
> >> parsing or misinterpretation and also allows the data to be presented
> >> in the format most comfortable for the consumer of the data. For
> >> example, rather than storing "€2000,00" as a string, it's strongly
> >> preferred to exchange a data structure such as:</p>
> >> --
> >>
> >> Also, note the misspelling of "locale-neutral" in the pull request.
> >>
> >> I would then go on to add some text about when locale parameters are
> >> needed. Something like:
> >>
> >> --
> >> Some datasets contain values that are not or cannot be rendered into
> >> a locale-neutral format. This is particularly true of any natural
> >> language text values. For each data field that can contain locale
> >> affected or natural language text, there should be an associated
> >> language tag used to indicate the language and locale of the data.
> >> This locale information can be used in parsing the data or to ensure
> >> proper presentation and processing of the value by the consumer.
> >> --
> >>
> >> (Sorry for not generating a pull request of my own)
> >>
> >> Addison
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:37 AM
> >>> To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>; Annette Greiner
> >>> <[hidden email]>
> >>> Cc: Phillips, Addison <[hidden email]>; [hidden email];
> >>> public-dwbp- [hidden email]; www International
> >>> <[hidden email]>
> >>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
> >>> locale-neutral representation #187
> >>>
> >>> I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3. You
> >>> can see the results at
> >>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
> >>>
> >>> This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value
> >>> of the xsd datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for it
> >>> to be an amendment rather than a whole new one - I hope.
> >>>
> >>> This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have not
> >>> moved the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the editors who
> >>> may want to make further changes - or argue for it to be left where
> >>> it is, or add references from the formats section or, or, or...
> >>>
> >>> I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
> >>>
> >>> Phil.
> >>>
> >>> [1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
> >>>
> >>> On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
> >>>> Dear Ishida,
> >>>>
> >>>> This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to ask
> >>>> your opinion about two of our proposals:
> >>>>
> >>>> 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3
> >>>> [2], or 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section
> >>>> 8.8 Data Formats [3] to discuss the relevance of having
> >>>> local-neutral representations.
> >>>>
> >>>> We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed
> >>>> that we won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new BP
> >>>> and to collect feedback from the community.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks a lot!
> >>>> DWBP editors
> >>>>
> >>>> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
> >>>> 2016Jul/0028.html
> >>>>
> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
> >>>> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
> >>>> [4]
> >>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.ht
> >>>> ml
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Addison,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I
> >>>>> am still missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as
> >>>>> to how to represent the "locale-neutral" data so that it can most
> >>>>> easily be made locale specific by existing tools. You mention
> >>>>> "pre-made standards for the basic data types". Is there a
> >>>>> recommended list we could
> >>> reference?
> >>>>> Thanks for your help!
> >>>>> -Annette
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hi Annette,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of
> >>>>>> the WG.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the
> >>>>>> Internet in general. One familiar format referenced by your
> >>>>>> document, for example, is XML Schema. While the representations
> >>>>>> of numbers, dates, and the like in XML Schema would be "more
> >>>>>> appropriate" for some languages/locales than others if given as
> >>>>>> plain text, what distinguishes them is that they are all machine
> >>>>>> readable and intended to
> >>> be read by machines for later processing.
> >>>>>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the
> >>>>>> data's consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific
> >>>>>> separators (such as decimal separators) over other, more
> >>>>>> localized values. Save for "free
> >>> text"
> >>>>>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral and
> >>>>>> these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so forth.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course,
> >>>>>> covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon), we
> >>>>>> have many different common measurement units defined internally.
> >>>>>> To transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to
> >>>>>> construct our own data schemas and identifiers. There are
> >>>>>> profoundly many ways to measure shoes, dresses, auto parts, hats,
> >>>>>> drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a nightmare to
> >>>>>> have to deal with localized
> >>> presentation formats on top of that.
> >>>>>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and
> >>>>>> these are what are needed to build almost any data structure
> >>>>>> necessary for global interchange of data.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Does that make sense?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Addison
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Addison Phillips
> >>>>>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon) Chair (W3C I18N WG)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Internationalization is not a feature.
> >>>>>> It is an architecture.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
> >>>>>>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> >>>>>>> Cc: www International <[hidden email]>
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
> >>>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice
> >>>>>>> document, but we would like some clarification of the practice
> >>>>>>> of locale neutrality.
> >>>>>>> You
> >>>>>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol, grouping
> >>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you
> >>>>>>> give an example of a locale-neutral data structure for monetary
> values.
> >>>>>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address differences
> >>>>>>> in decimal symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits,
> >>>>>>> or digit shapes. It does provide a mechanism to separately
> >>>>>>> specify the units, and the example uses an ISO-4217 currency
> >>>>>>> code, both of which we agree are good ideas. Is there a broad
> >>>>>>> standard (beyond just monetary) for addressing the other
> >>>>>>> symbol/representation issues you raised that we can address
> briefly in our best practice?
> >>>>>>> Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral approach?
> >>>>>>> Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
> >>>>>>> numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your
> example)?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -Annette
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> [raised by aphillips]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer
> >>>>>>>> applications to work accurately with things like dates,
> >>>>>>>> currencies and numbers that may look similar but have different
> >>>>>>>> meanings in different locales.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
> >>>>>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in
> >>>>>>>> a locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing
> >>>>>>>> the string "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the
> >>>>>>>> following is strongly
> >>>>>>>> preferred:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> ```
> >>>>>>>> "price" {
> >>>>>>>>      "value": 2000.00,
> >>>>>>>>      "currency": "EUR"
> >>>>>>>> }
> >>>>>>>> ```
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
> >>>>>>>> excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping
> >>>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's
> >>>>>>>> because there can be wide variation (sometimes open to
> >>>>>>>> misinterpretation) that sending a locale neutral format is
> preferred for data values.
> >>>>>>>> Note also btw that the position of the currency symbol is
> >>>>>>>> dependent on the locale. In France it would be normal to write
> >>> 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
> >>>>>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Annette Greiner
> >>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National
> >>>>>>> Laboratory
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Annette Greiner
> >>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
> >>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>> --
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Phil Archer
> >>> W3C Data Activity Lead
> >>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
> >>>
> >>> http://philarcher.org
> >>> +44 (0)7887 767755
> >>> @philarcher1
> >
>
> --
>
>
> Phil Archer
> W3C Data Activity Lead
> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>
> http://philarcher.org
> +44 (0)7887 767755
> @philarcher1
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Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Phil Archer-4
Thanks again Addison,

Pls see below.

On 22/08/2016 18:36, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> Hi Phil,
>
> This looks good. A few comments.
>
> 1. Rather than providing your own definition for 'locale', you might make use of the one we provide in LTLI [1].

Done
http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter

>
> 2. The "why" is still missing something. I would suggest adding a new first paragraph explaining locale-neutral first. Something like:
>
> --
> Data values that are machine-readable and not specific to any particular language or culture are more durable and less open to misinterpretation than values that use one of the many different cultural representations. By using a locale-neutral format, systems avoid the need to establish specific interchange rules that vary according to the language or location of the user.
>
> When the data is already in a locale-specific format, providing locale parameters... <rest of existing text>


Done, exactly as you suggest
http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata

With luck... the doc gets a green light from you?

Thanks again

Phil.

> --
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Addison
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 2:34 AM
>> To: Deirdre Lee <[hidden email]>; Phillips, Addison
>> <[hidden email]>; Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>;
>> Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>
>> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; www International
>> <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
>> representation #187
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I have taken further steps on this. The result can be seen at
>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>
>> 1. Addision's text used more or less verbatim; 1a. taken account of Annette's
>> suggestion; 1b. replaced inline links to BCP47 and CLDR with references 2.
>> title of the BP changed to Use locale-neutral data representations 3. moved
>> to Data Formats section as resolved in WG meeting on Friday; 4. added R-
>> FormatMachineRead to list of evidence and thereby updated the UCR cross
>> matching; 5. updated the Challenges SVG diagram; 6. updated my Pull
>> request.
>>
>> NB, I *retained* the old ID for the BP so that any links to
>> #LocaleParametersMetadata will still work. I know there are some of these,
>> for example, in the Share-PSI project.
>>
>> HTH
>>
>> Phil.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 22/08/2016 08:52, Deirdre Lee wrote:
>>> HI,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your comments Addison. I think they make sense and
>>> should be straight-forward to incorporate.
>>>
>>> The title of the BP should probably also be updated to something like
>>> 'Provide locale-neutral data'
>>>
>>> Phil and DWBP editors, in Friday's meeting we also agreed to move BP3
>>> to the Data Formats section from the Metadata section, which would
>>> make it BP14, right?
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>>
>>> Deirdre
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>> Hi Phil,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for starting on this. I think the pull request is a good start.
>>>> I have some comments on it.
>>>>
>>>> My main concern is that this BP is really backwards. It recommends to
>>>> "locale parameter metadata" and then says that the simplest way to do
>>>> this is to use locale-neutral formats. The recommendation should be
>>>> more like "use locale-neutral formats or provide locale/language
>>>> information where that's not possible". The pull request captures the
>>>> use of locale-neutral, but doesn't really explain about when to
>>>> provide locale and language information.
>>>>
>>>> I would change this:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> <p class="practicedesc">Provide metadata about locale parameters
>>>> (date, time, and number formats, language).</p>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> To say:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> <p class="practicedesc">Use locale-neutral data structures and
>>>> values, or, where that is not possible, provide metadata about the
>>>> locale used by data values.</p>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> I would change:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> <p>The simplest method is to use local-neutral representations of the
>>>> actual data, and then add metadata to provide relevant locale
>>>> information. For example, rather than storing "€2000.00" as a string,
>>>> it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such as:</p>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> To say:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> <p>Most common data representations are locale neutral. For example,
>>>> XML Schema types such as xsd:integer and xsd: date are intended for
>>>> locale-neutral data interchange. Using locale-neutral representations
>>>> allows the data values to be processed accurately without complex
>>>> parsing or misinterpretation and also allows the data to be presented
>>>> in the format most comfortable for the consumer of the data. For
>>>> example, rather than storing "€2000,00" as a string, it's strongly
>>>> preferred to exchange a data structure such as:</p>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Also, note the misspelling of "locale-neutral" in the pull request.
>>>>
>>>> I would then go on to add some text about when locale parameters are
>>>> needed. Something like:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Some datasets contain values that are not or cannot be rendered into
>>>> a locale-neutral format. This is particularly true of any natural
>>>> language text values. For each data field that can contain locale
>>>> affected or natural language text, there should be an associated
>>>> language tag used to indicate the language and locale of the data.
>>>> This locale information can be used in parsing the data or to ensure
>>>> proper presentation and processing of the value by the consumer.
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> (Sorry for not generating a pull request of my own)
>>>>
>>>> Addison
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:37 AM
>>>>> To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>; Annette Greiner
>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Cc: Phillips, Addison <[hidden email]>; [hidden email];
>>>>> public-dwbp- [hidden email]; www International
>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>>>
>>>>> I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3. You
>>>>> can see the results at
>>>>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>
>>>>> This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value
>>>>> of the xsd datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for it
>>>>> to be an amendment rather than a whole new one - I hope.
>>>>>
>>>>> This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have not
>>>>> moved the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the editors who
>>>>> may want to make further changes - or argue for it to be left where
>>>>> it is, or add references from the formats section or, or, or...
>>>>>
>>>>> I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
>>>>>
>>>>> On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>>>>>> Dear Ishida,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to ask
>>>>>> your opinion about two of our proposals:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3
>>>>>> [2], or 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section
>>>>>> 8.8 Data Formats [3] to discuss the relevance of having
>>>>>> local-neutral representations.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed
>>>>>> that we won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new BP
>>>>>> and to collect feedback from the community.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks a lot!
>>>>>> DWBP editors
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
>>>>>> 2016Jul/0028.html
>>>>>>
>> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
>>>>>> [4]
>>>>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.ht
>>>>>> ml
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Addison,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I
>>>>>>> am still missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as
>>>>>>> to how to represent the "locale-neutral" data so that it can most
>>>>>>> easily be made locale specific by existing tools. You mention
>>>>>>> "pre-made standards for the basic data types". Is there a
>>>>>>> recommended list we could
>>>>> reference?
>>>>>>> Thanks for your help!
>>>>>>> -Annette
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hi Annette,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of
>>>>>>>> the WG.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the
>>>>>>>> Internet in general. One familiar format referenced by your
>>>>>>>> document, for example, is XML Schema. While the representations
>>>>>>>> of numbers, dates, and the like in XML Schema would be "more
>>>>>>>> appropriate" for some languages/locales than others if given as
>>>>>>>> plain text, what distinguishes them is that they are all machine
>>>>>>>> readable and intended to
>>>>> be read by machines for later processing.
>>>>>>>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the
>>>>>>>> data's consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific
>>>>>>>> separators (such as decimal separators) over other, more
>>>>>>>> localized values. Save for "free
>>>>> text"
>>>>>>>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral and
>>>>>>>> these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so forth.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course,
>>>>>>>> covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon), we
>>>>>>>> have many different common measurement units defined internally.
>>>>>>>> To transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to
>>>>>>>> construct our own data schemas and identifiers. There are
>>>>>>>> profoundly many ways to measure shoes, dresses, auto parts, hats,
>>>>>>>> drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a nightmare to
>>>>>>>> have to deal with localized
>>>>> presentation formats on top of that.
>>>>>>>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and
>>>>>>>> these are what are needed to build almost any data structure
>>>>>>>> necessary for global interchange of data.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Addison
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Addison Phillips
>>>>>>>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon) Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>>>>> It is an architecture.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>> Cc: www International <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
>>>>>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice
>>>>>>>>> document, but we would like some clarification of the practice
>>>>>>>>> of locale neutrality.
>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol, grouping
>>>>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc., and you
>>>>>>>>> give an example of a locale-neutral data structure for monetary
>> values.
>>>>>>>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address differences
>>>>>>>>> in decimal symbol, grouping symbol, number of grouping digits,
>>>>>>>>> or digit shapes. It does provide a mechanism to separately
>>>>>>>>> specify the units, and the example uses an ISO-4217 currency
>>>>>>>>> code, both of which we agree are good ideas. Is there a broad
>>>>>>>>> standard (beyond just monetary) for addressing the other
>>>>>>>>> symbol/representation issues you raised that we can address
>> briefly in our best practice?
>>>>>>>>> Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral approach?
>>>>>>>>> Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
>>>>>>>>> numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your
>> example)?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -Annette
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [raised by aphillips]
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer
>>>>>>>>>> applications to work accurately with things like dates,
>>>>>>>>>> currencies and numbers that may look similar but have different
>>>>>>>>>> meanings in different locales.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
>>>>>>>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users in
>>>>>>>>>> a locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of storing
>>>>>>>>>> the string "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure like the
>>>>>>>>>> following is strongly
>>>>>>>>>> preferred:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>>> "price" {
>>>>>>>>>>      "value": 2000.00,
>>>>>>>>>>      "currency": "EUR"
>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is an
>>>>>>>>>> excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol, grouping
>>>>>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's
>>>>>>>>>> because there can be wide variation (sometimes open to
>>>>>>>>>> misinterpretation) that sending a locale neutral format is
>> preferred for data values.
>>>>>>>>>> Note also btw that the position of the currency symbol is
>>>>>>>>>> dependent on the locale. In France it would be normal to write
>>>>> 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>>>>>>>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National
>>>>>>>>> Laboratory
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>>>>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil Archer
>>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>>>
>>>>> http://philarcher.org
>>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>>>> @philarcher1
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> Phil Archer
>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>
>> http://philarcher.org
>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>> @philarcher1

--


Phil Archer
W3C Data Activity Lead
http://www.w3.org/2013/data/

http://philarcher.org
+44 (0)7887 767755
@philarcher1

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RE: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Phillips, Addison-2
Hi Phil,

Thanks. This looks good to me.

Addison

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 3:29 AM
> To: Phillips, Addison <[hidden email]>; Deirdre Lee
> <[hidden email]>; Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>;
> Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; www International
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
> representation #187
>
> Thanks again Addison,
>
> Pls see below.
>
> On 22/08/2016 18:36, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> > Hi Phil,
> >
> > This looks good. A few comments.
> >
> > 1. Rather than providing your own definition for 'locale', you might make
> use of the one we provide in LTLI [1].
>
> Done
> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter
>
> >
> > 2. The "why" is still missing something. I would suggest adding a new first
> paragraph explaining locale-neutral first. Something like:
> >
> > --
> > Data values that are machine-readable and not specific to any particular
> language or culture are more durable and less open to misinterpretation than
> values that use one of the many different cultural representations. By using a
> locale-neutral format, systems avoid the need to establish specific
> interchange rules that vary according to the language or location of the user.
> >
> > When the data is already in a locale-specific format, providing locale
> > parameters... <rest of existing text>
>
>
> Done, exactly as you suggest
> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>
> With luck... the doc gets a green light from you?
>
> Thanks again
>
> Phil.
>
> > --
> >
> > Hope that helps,
> >
> > Addison
> >
> > [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 2:34 AM
> >> To: Deirdre Lee <[hidden email]>; Phillips, Addison
> >> <[hidden email]>; Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>;
> >> Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>
> >> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; www International
> >> <[hidden email]>
> >> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
> >> locale-neutral representation #187
> >>
> >> Dear all,
> >>
> >> I have taken further steps on this. The result can be seen at
> >> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
> >>
> >> 1. Addision's text used more or less verbatim; 1a. taken account of
> >> Annette's suggestion; 1b. replaced inline links to BCP47 and CLDR with
> references 2.
> >> title of the BP changed to Use locale-neutral data representations 3.
> >> moved to Data Formats section as resolved in WG meeting on Friday; 4.
> >> added R- FormatMachineRead to list of evidence and thereby updated
> >> the UCR cross matching; 5. updated the Challenges SVG diagram; 6.
> >> updated my Pull request.
> >>
> >> NB, I *retained* the old ID for the BP so that any links to
> >> #LocaleParametersMetadata will still work. I know there are some of
> >> these, for example, in the Share-PSI project.
> >>
> >> HTH
> >>
> >> Phil.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 22/08/2016 08:52, Deirdre Lee wrote:
> >>> HI,
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for your comments Addison. I think they make sense and
> >>> should be straight-forward to incorporate.
> >>>
> >>> The title of the BP should probably also be updated to something
> >>> like 'Provide locale-neutral data'
> >>>
> >>> Phil and DWBP editors, in Friday's meeting we also agreed to move
> >>> BP3 to the Data Formats section from the Metadata section, which
> >>> would make it BP14, right?
> >>>
> >>> Kind regards,
> >>>
> >>> Deirdre
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> >>>> Hi Phil,
> >>>>
> >>>> Thanks for starting on this. I think the pull request is a good start.
> >>>> I have some comments on it.
> >>>>
> >>>> My main concern is that this BP is really backwards. It recommends
> >>>> to "locale parameter metadata" and then says that the simplest way
> >>>> to do this is to use locale-neutral formats. The recommendation
> >>>> should be more like "use locale-neutral formats or provide
> >>>> locale/language information where that's not possible". The pull
> >>>> request captures the use of locale-neutral, but doesn't really
> >>>> explain about when to provide locale and language information.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would change this:
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> <p class="practicedesc">Provide metadata about locale parameters
> >>>> (date, time, and number formats, language).</p>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> To say:
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> <p class="practicedesc">Use locale-neutral data structures and
> >>>> values, or, where that is not possible, provide metadata about the
> >>>> locale used by data values.</p>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> I would change:
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> <p>The simplest method is to use local-neutral representations of
> >>>> the actual data, and then add metadata to provide relevant locale
> >>>> information. For example, rather than storing "€2000.00" as a
> >>>> string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such
> >>>> as:</p>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> To say:
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> <p>Most common data representations are locale neutral. For
> >>>> example, XML Schema types such as xsd:integer and xsd: date are
> >>>> intended for locale-neutral data interchange. Using locale-neutral
> >>>> representations allows the data values to be processed accurately
> >>>> without complex parsing or misinterpretation and also allows the
> >>>> data to be presented in the format most comfortable for the
> >>>> consumer of the data. For example, rather than storing "€2000,00"
> >>>> as a string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure
> >>>> such as:</p>
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> Also, note the misspelling of "locale-neutral" in the pull request.
> >>>>
> >>>> I would then go on to add some text about when locale parameters
> >>>> are needed. Something like:
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Some datasets contain values that are not or cannot be rendered
> >>>> into a locale-neutral format. This is particularly true of any
> >>>> natural language text values. For each data field that can contain
> >>>> locale affected or natural language text, there should be an
> >>>> associated language tag used to indicate the language and locale of the
> data.
> >>>> This locale information can be used in parsing the data or to
> >>>> ensure proper presentation and processing of the value by the
> consumer.
> >>>> --
> >>>>
> >>>> (Sorry for not generating a pull request of my own)
> >>>>
> >>>> Addison
> >>>>
> >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >>>>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:37 AM
> >>>>> To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>; Annette Greiner
> >>>>> <[hidden email]>
> >>>>> Cc: Phillips, Addison <[hidden email]>; [hidden email];
> >>>>> public-dwbp- [hidden email]; www International
> >>>>> <[hidden email]>
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
> >>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3.
> >>>>> You can see the results at
> >>>>>
> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value
> >>>>> of the xsd datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for
> >>>>> it to be an amendment rather than a whole new one - I hope.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have
> >>>>> not moved the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the
> >>>>> editors who may want to make further changes - or argue for it to
> >>>>> be left where it is, or add references from the formats section or, or,
> or...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Phil.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
> >>>>>> Dear Ishida,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to
> >>>>>> ask your opinion about two of our proposals:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3
> >>>>>> [2], or 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section
> >>>>>> 8.8 Data Formats [3] to discuss the relevance of having
> >>>>>> local-neutral representations.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed
> >>>>>> that we won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new
> >>>>>> BP and to collect feedback from the community.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Thanks a lot!
> >>>>>> DWBP editors
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
> >>>>>> 2016Jul/0028.html
> >>>>>>
> >> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
> >>>>>> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
> >>>>>> [4]
> >>>>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.
> >>>>>> ht
> >>>>>> ml
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Hi Addison,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I
> >>>>>>> am still missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as
> >>>>>>> to how to represent the "locale-neutral" data so that it can
> >>>>>>> most easily be made locale specific by existing tools. You
> >>>>>>> mention "pre-made standards for the basic data types". Is there
> >>>>>>> a recommended list we could
> >>>>> reference?
> >>>>>>> Thanks for your help!
> >>>>>>> -Annette
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Hi Annette,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of
> >>>>>>>> the WG.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the
> >>>>>>>> Internet in general. One familiar format referenced by your
> >>>>>>>> document, for example, is XML Schema. While the
> representations
> >>>>>>>> of numbers, dates, and the like in XML Schema would be "more
> >>>>>>>> appropriate" for some languages/locales than others if given as
> >>>>>>>> plain text, what distinguishes them is that they are all
> >>>>>>>> machine readable and intended to
> >>>>> be read by machines for later processing.
> >>>>>>>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the
> >>>>>>>> data's consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific
> >>>>>>>> separators (such as decimal separators) over other, more
> >>>>>>>> localized values. Save for "free
> >>>>> text"
> >>>>>>>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral
> >>>>>>>> and these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so
> forth.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course,
> >>>>>>>> covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon),
> >>>>>>>> we have many different common measurement units defined
> internally.
> >>>>>>>> To transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to
> >>>>>>>> construct our own data schemas and identifiers. There are
> >>>>>>>> profoundly many ways to measure shoes, dresses, auto parts,
> >>>>>>>> hats, drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a
> >>>>>>>> nightmare to have to deal with localized
> >>>>> presentation formats on top of that.
> >>>>>>>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and
> >>>>>>>> these are what are needed to build almost any data structure
> >>>>>>>> necessary for global interchange of data.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Does that make sense?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Addison
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Addison Phillips
> >>>>>>>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon) Chair (W3C I18N WG)
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Internationalization is not a feature.
> >>>>>>>> It is an architecture.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:[hidden email]]
> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
> >>>>>>>>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> >>>>>>>>> Cc: www International <[hidden email]>
> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
> >>>>>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice
> >>>>>>>>> document, but we would like some clarification of the practice
> >>>>>>>>> of locale neutrality.
> >>>>>>>>> You
> >>>>>>>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol,
> >>>>>>>>> grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes,
> >>>>>>>>> etc., and you give an example of a locale-neutral data
> >>>>>>>>> structure for monetary
> >> values.
> >>>>>>>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address
> >>>>>>>>> differences in decimal symbol, grouping symbol, number of
> >>>>>>>>> grouping digits, or digit shapes. It does provide a mechanism
> >>>>>>>>> to separately specify the units, and the example uses an
> >>>>>>>>> ISO-4217 currency code, both of which we agree are good ideas.
> >>>>>>>>> Is there a broad standard (beyond just monetary) for
> >>>>>>>>> addressing the other symbol/representation issues you raised
> >>>>>>>>> that we can address
> >> briefly in our best practice?
> >>>>>>>>> Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral
> approach?
> >>>>>>>>> Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
> >>>>>>>>> numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your
> >> example)?
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> -Annette
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> [raised by aphillips]
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer
> >>>>>>>>>> applications to work accurately with things like dates,
> >>>>>>>>>> currencies and numbers that may look similar but have
> >>>>>>>>>> different meanings in different locales.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
> >>>>>>>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users
> >>>>>>>>>> in a locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of
> >>>>>>>>>> storing the string "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure
> >>>>>>>>>> like the following is strongly
> >>>>>>>>>> preferred:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ```
> >>>>>>>>>> "price" {
> >>>>>>>>>>      "value": 2000.00,
> >>>>>>>>>>      "currency": "EUR"
> >>>>>>>>>> }
> >>>>>>>>>> ```
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is
> >>>>>>>>>> an excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol,
> grouping
> >>>>>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's
> >>>>>>>>>> because there can be wide variation (sometimes open to
> >>>>>>>>>> misinterpretation) that sending a locale neutral format is
> >> preferred for data values.
> >>>>>>>>>> Note also btw that the position of the currency symbol is
> >>>>>>>>>> dependent on the locale. In France it would be normal to
> >>>>>>>>>> write
> >>>>> 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
> >>>>>>>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>>> Annette Greiner
> >>>>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National
> >>>>>>>>> Laboratory
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Annette Greiner
> >>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National
> >>>>>>> Laboratory
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Phil Archer
> >>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
> >>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://philarcher.org
> >>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
> >>>>> @philarcher1
> >>>
> >>
> >> --
> >>
> >>
> >> Phil Archer
> >> W3C Data Activity Lead
> >> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
> >>
> >> http://philarcher.org
> >> +44 (0)7887 767755
> >> @philarcher1
>
> --
>
>
> Phil Archer
> W3C Data Activity Lead
> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>
> http://philarcher.org
> +44 (0)7887 767755
> @philarcher1
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Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Annette Greiner

Hi folks,

Sorry I haven't been able to jump in before now. Since this has been changing a bunch, let me say that this comment is on the version at http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#dataFormats as of 9:37am PDT August 23.

The "Why" still devotes more text to the metadata approach than to the locale-neutral approach, though a little reshuffling would fix that. Here's a suggested rewrite:

"Data values that are machine-readable and not specific to any particular language or culture are more durable and less open to misinterpretation than values that use one of the many different cultural representations. Things like dates, currencies and numbers may look similar but have different meanings in different locales. For example, the 'date' 4/7 can be read as 7th of April or the 4th of July depending on where the data was created. Similarly, €2,000 is either two thousand Euros or an over-precise representation of two Euros. By using a locale-neutral format, systems avoid the need to establish specific interchange rules that vary according to the language or location of the user. When the data is already in a locale-specific format, making the locale and language explicit by providing locale parameters allows users to determine how readily they can work with the data and may enable automated translation services."

I also don't believe this is true: "Most common data representations are locale neutral." I would say most common data serialization formats are locale neutral, but it seems to me quite common to see them used in locale-specific ways.

Finally, the example marked prominently as Example 13 looks like the primary suggestion for implementing the BP, which it isn't anymore. I think the 2000 Euro example should be at least as prominently marked.

-Annette


On 8/23/16 7:11 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
Hi Phil,

Thanks. This looks good to me.

Addison

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Archer [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 3:29 AM
To: Phillips, Addison [hidden email]; Deirdre Lee
[hidden email]; Bernadette Farias Lóscio [hidden email];
Annette Greiner [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; www International
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
representation #187

Thanks again Addison,

Pls see below.

On 22/08/2016 18:36, Phillips, Addison wrote:
Hi Phil,

This looks good. A few comments.

1. Rather than providing your own definition for 'locale', you might make
use of the one we provide in LTLI [1].

Done
http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter

2. The "why" is still missing something. I would suggest adding a new first
paragraph explaining locale-neutral first. Something like:
--
Data values that are machine-readable and not specific to any particular
language or culture are more durable and less open to misinterpretation than
values that use one of the many different cultural representations. By using a
locale-neutral format, systems avoid the need to establish specific
interchange rules that vary according to the language or location of the user.
When the data is already in a locale-specific format, providing locale
parameters... <rest of existing text>

Done, exactly as you suggest
http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata

With luck... the doc gets a green light from you?

Thanks again

Phil.

--

Hope that helps,

Addison

[1] https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Archer [[hidden email]]
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 2:34 AM
To: Deirdre Lee [hidden email]; Phillips, Addison
[hidden email]; Bernadette Farias Lóscio [hidden email];
Annette Greiner [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; www International
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
locale-neutral representation #187

Dear all,

I have taken further steps on this. The result can be seen at
http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata

1. Addision's text used more or less verbatim; 1a. taken account of
Annette's suggestion; 1b. replaced inline links to BCP47 and CLDR with
references 2.
title of the BP changed to Use locale-neutral data representations 3.
moved to Data Formats section as resolved in WG meeting on Friday; 4.
added R- FormatMachineRead to list of evidence and thereby updated
the UCR cross matching; 5. updated the Challenges SVG diagram; 6.
updated my Pull request.

NB, I *retained* the old ID for the BP so that any links to
#LocaleParametersMetadata will still work. I know there are some of
these, for example, in the Share-PSI project.

HTH

Phil.



On 22/08/2016 08:52, Deirdre Lee wrote:
HI,

Thank you for your comments Addison. I think they make sense and
should be straight-forward to incorporate.

The title of the BP should probably also be updated to something
like 'Provide locale-neutral data'

Phil and DWBP editors, in Friday's meeting we also agreed to move
BP3 to the Data Formats section from the Metadata section, which
would make it BP14, right?

Kind regards,

Deirdre



On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips, Addison wrote:
Hi Phil,

Thanks for starting on this. I think the pull request is a good start.
I have some comments on it.

My main concern is that this BP is really backwards. It recommends
to "locale parameter metadata" and then says that the simplest way
to do this is to use locale-neutral formats. The recommendation
should be more like "use locale-neutral formats or provide
locale/language information where that's not possible". The pull
request captures the use of locale-neutral, but doesn't really
explain about when to provide locale and language information.

I would change this:

--
<p class="practicedesc">Provide metadata about locale parameters
(date, time, and number formats, language).</p>
--

To say:

--
<p class="practicedesc">Use locale-neutral data structures and
values, or, where that is not possible, provide metadata about the
locale used by data values.</p>
--

I would change:

--
<p>The simplest method is to use local-neutral representations of
the actual data, and then add metadata to provide relevant locale
information. For example, rather than storing "€2000.00" as a
string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such
as:</p>
--

To say:

--
<p>Most common data representations are locale neutral. For
example, XML Schema types such as xsd:integer and xsd: date are
intended for locale-neutral data interchange. Using locale-neutral
representations allows the data values to be processed accurately
without complex parsing or misinterpretation and also allows the
data to be presented in the format most comfortable for the
consumer of the data. For example, rather than storing "€2000,00"
as a string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure
such as:</p>
--

Also, note the misspelling of "locale-neutral" in the pull request.

I would then go on to add some text about when locale parameters
are needed. Something like:

--
Some datasets contain values that are not or cannot be rendered
into a locale-neutral format. This is particularly true of any
natural language text values. For each data field that can contain
locale affected or natural language text, there should be an
associated language tag used to indicate the language and locale of the
data.
This locale information can be used in parsing the data or to
ensure proper presentation and processing of the value by the
consumer.
--

(Sorry for not generating a pull request of my own)

Addison

-----Original Message-----
From: Phil Archer [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:37 AM
To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio [hidden email]; Annette Greiner
[hidden email]
Cc: Phillips, Addison [hidden email]; [hidden email];
public-dwbp- [hidden email]; www International
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
locale-neutral representation #187

I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3.
You can see the results at

http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value
of the xsd datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for
it to be an amendment rather than a whole new one - I hope.

This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have
not moved the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the
editors who may want to make further changes - or argue for it to
be left where it is, or add references from the formats section or, or,
or...
I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447

Phil.

[1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02

On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
Dear Ishida,

This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to
ask your opinion about two of our proposals:

1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3
[2], or 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section
8.8 Data Formats [3] to discuss the relevance of having
local-neutral representations.

We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed
that we won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new
BP and to collect feedback from the community.

Thanks a lot!
DWBP editors

[1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
2016Jul/0028.html

[2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
[3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
[4]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.
ht
ml


2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner [hidden email]:

Hi Addison,

Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I
am still missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as
to how to represent the "locale-neutral" data so that it can
most easily be made locale specific by existing tools. You
mention "pre-made standards for the basic data types". Is there
a recommended list we could
reference?
Thanks for your help!
-Annette


On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:

Hi Annette,

Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of
the WG.

Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the
Internet in general. One familiar format referenced by your
document, for example, is XML Schema. While the
representations
of numbers, dates, and the like in XML Schema would be "more
appropriate" for some languages/locales than others if given as
plain text, what distinguishes them is that they are all
machine readable and intended to
be read by machines for later processing.
The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the
data's consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific
separators (such as decimal separators) over other, more
localized values. Save for "free
text"
(natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral
and these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so
forth.
Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course,
covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon),
we have many different common measurement units defined
internally.
To transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to
construct our own data schemas and identifiers. There are
profoundly many ways to measure shoes, dresses, auto parts,
hats, drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a
nightmare to have to deal with localized
presentation formats on top of that.
But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and
these are what are needed to build almost any data structure
necessary for global interchange of data.

Does that make sense?

Addison

Addison Phillips
Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon) Chair (W3C I18N WG)

Internationalization is not a feature.
It is an architecture.




-----Original Message-----
From: Annette Greiner [[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Cc: www International [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
locale-neutral representation #187

Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,

We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice
document, but we would like some clarification of the practice
of locale neutrality.
You
mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol,
grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes,
etc., and you give an example of a locale-neutral data
structure for monetary
values.
But this structure alone does not appear to address
differences in decimal symbol, grouping symbol, number of
grouping digits, or digit shapes. It does provide a mechanism
to separately specify the units, and the example uses an
ISO-4217 currency code, both of which we agree are good ideas.
Is there a broad standard (beyond just monetary) for
addressing the other symbol/representation issues you raised
that we can address
briefly in our best practice?
Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral
approach?
Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your
example)?
-Annette


On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

[raised by aphillips]

https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata

Best practice #3 introduces itself as:

Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer
applications to work accurately with things like dates,
currencies and numbers that may look similar but have
different meanings in different locales.

But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users
in a locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of
storing the string "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure
like the following is strongly
preferred:

```
"price" {
     "value": 2000.00,
     "currency": "EUR"
}
```

The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is
an excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.

Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol,
grouping
symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's
because there can be wide variation (sometimes open to
misinterpretation) that sending a locale neutral format is
preferred for data values.
Note also btw that the position of the currency symbol is
dependent on the locale. In France it would be normal to
write
2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.


--
Annette Greiner
NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National
Laboratory


--
Annette Greiner
NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National
Laboratory




                  
--


Phil Archer
W3C Data Activity Lead
http://www.w3.org/2013/data/

http://philarcher.org
+44 (0)7887 767755
@philarcher1

            
--


Phil Archer
W3C Data Activity Lead
http://www.w3.org/2013/data/

http://philarcher.org
+44 (0)7887 767755
@philarcher1
--


Phil Archer
W3C Data Activity Lead
http://www.w3.org/2013/data/

http://philarcher.org
+44 (0)7887 767755
@philarcher1

-- 
Annette Greiner
NERSC Data and Analytics Services
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory

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Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral representation #187

Phil Archer-4
Thanks Annette,

As time is tight - I want to put the CR doc in place - I've gone ahead
and responded to this as indicated inline below:

On 23/08/2016 18:30, Annette Greiner wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> Sorry I haven't been able to jump in before now. Since this has been
> changing a bunch, let me say that this comment is on the version at
> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#dataFormats as of 9:37am PDT August 23.
>
> The "Why" still devotes more text to the metadata approach than to the
> locale-neutral approach, though a little reshuffling would fix that.
> Here's a suggested rewrite:
>
> "Data values that are machine-readable and not specific to any
> particular language or culture are more durable and less open to
> misinterpretation than values that use one of the many different
> cultural representations. Things like dates, currencies and numbers may
> look similar but have different meanings in different locales. For
> example, the 'date' 4/7 can be read as 7th of April or the 4th of July
> depending on where the data was created. Similarly, €2,000 is either two
> thousand Euros or an over-precise representation of two Euros. By using
> a locale-neutral format, systems avoid the need to establish specific
> interchange rules that vary according to the language or location of the
> user. When the data is already in a locale-specific format, making the
> locale and language explicit by providing locale
> <http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter> parameters allows
> users to determine how readily they can work with the data and may
> enable automated translation services."

No problem AFAICT - text changed to this. I very much doubt Addsion will
object.

>
> I also don't believe this is true: "Most common data representations are
> locale neutral." I would say most common data serialization formats are
> locale neutral, but it seems to me quite common to see them used in
> locale-specific ways.

OK, text changed, Pull request made and merged.

>
> Finally, the example marked prominently as Example 13 looks like the
> primary suggestion for implementing the BP, which it isn't anymore. I
> think the 2000 Euro example should be at least as prominently marked.

I sympathise but I'm going to have to leave that to the editors. It can
be done by simply adding class="example" to the <pre> element. But,
doing that then means that the example numbers will be out of step with
the BP numbers from that that point on, which I *think* editors have
been anxious to avoid?

Berna, Newton, Carol - can you look at this today?

Cheers

Phil

>
> -Annette
>
>
> On 8/23/16 7:11 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>> Hi Phil,
>>
>> Thanks. This looks good to me.
>>
>> Addison
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 3:29 AM
>>> To: Phillips, Addison <[hidden email]>; Deirdre Lee
>>> <[hidden email]>; Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>;
>>> Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>
>>> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; www International
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend locale-neutral
>>> representation #187
>>>
>>> Thanks again Addison,
>>>
>>> Pls see below.
>>>
>>> On 22/08/2016 18:36, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>> Hi Phil,
>>>>
>>>> This looks good. A few comments.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Rather than providing your own definition for 'locale', you might
>>>> make
>>> use of the one we provide in LTLI [1].
>>>
>>> Done
>>> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter
>>>
>>>> 2. The "why" is still missing something. I would suggest adding a
>>>> new first
>>> paragraph explaining locale-neutral first. Something like:
>>>> --
>>>> Data values that are machine-readable and not specific to any
>>>> particular
>>> language or culture are more durable and less open to
>>> misinterpretation than
>>> values that use one of the many different cultural representations.
>>> By using a
>>> locale-neutral format, systems avoid the need to establish specific
>>> interchange rules that vary according to the language or location of
>>> the user.
>>>> When the data is already in a locale-specific format, providing locale
>>>> parameters... <rest of existing text>
>>>
>>> Done, exactly as you suggest
>>> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>
>>> With luck... the doc gets a green light from you?
>>>
>>> Thanks again
>>>
>>> Phil.
>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>
>>>> Addison
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 2:34 AM
>>>>> To: Deirdre Lee <[hidden email]>; Phillips, Addison
>>>>> <[hidden email]>; Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>;
>>>>> Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; www International
>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I have taken further steps on this. The result can be seen at
>>>>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Addision's text used more or less verbatim; 1a. taken account of
>>>>> Annette's suggestion; 1b. replaced inline links to BCP47 and CLDR with
>>> references 2.
>>>>> title of the BP changed to Use locale-neutral data representations 3.
>>>>> moved to Data Formats section as resolved in WG meeting on Friday; 4.
>>>>> added R- FormatMachineRead to list of evidence and thereby updated
>>>>> the UCR cross matching; 5. updated the Challenges SVG diagram; 6.
>>>>> updated my Pull request.
>>>>>
>>>>> NB, I *retained* the old ID for the BP so that any links to
>>>>> #LocaleParametersMetadata will still work. I know there are some of
>>>>> these, for example, in the Share-PSI project.
>>>>>
>>>>> HTH
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 22/08/2016 08:52, Deirdre Lee wrote:
>>>>>> HI,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for your comments Addison. I think they make sense and
>>>>>> should be straight-forward to incorporate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The title of the BP should probably also be updated to something
>>>>>> like 'Provide locale-neutral data'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil and DWBP editors, in Friday's meeting we also agreed to move
>>>>>> BP3 to the Data Formats section from the Metadata section, which
>>>>>> would make it BP14, right?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Deirdre
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi Phil,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for starting on this. I think the pull request is a good
>>>>>>> start.
>>>>>>> I have some comments on it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My main concern is that this BP is really backwards. It recommends
>>>>>>> to "locale parameter metadata" and then says that the simplest way
>>>>>>> to do this is to use locale-neutral formats. The recommendation
>>>>>>> should be more like "use locale-neutral formats or provide
>>>>>>> locale/language information where that's not possible". The pull
>>>>>>> request captures the use of locale-neutral, but doesn't really
>>>>>>> explain about when to provide locale and language information.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would change this:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> <p class="practicedesc">Provide metadata about locale parameters
>>>>>>> (date, time, and number formats, language).</p>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To say:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> <p class="practicedesc">Use locale-neutral data structures and
>>>>>>> values, or, where that is not possible, provide metadata about the
>>>>>>> locale used by data values.</p>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would change:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> <p>The simplest method is to use local-neutral representations of
>>>>>>> the actual data, and then add metadata to provide relevant locale
>>>>>>> information. For example, rather than storing "€2000.00" as a
>>>>>>> string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such
>>>>>>> as:</p>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To say:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> <p>Most common data representations are locale neutral. For
>>>>>>> example, XML Schema types such as xsd:integer and xsd: date are
>>>>>>> intended for locale-neutral data interchange. Using locale-neutral
>>>>>>> representations allows the data values to be processed accurately
>>>>>>> without complex parsing or misinterpretation and also allows the
>>>>>>> data to be presented in the format most comfortable for the
>>>>>>> consumer of the data. For example, rather than storing "€2000,00"
>>>>>>> as a string, it's strongly preferred to exchange a data structure
>>>>>>> such as:</p>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, note the misspelling of "locale-neutral" in the pull request.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would then go on to add some text about when locale parameters
>>>>>>> are needed. Something like:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Some datasets contain values that are not or cannot be rendered
>>>>>>> into a locale-neutral format. This is particularly true of any
>>>>>>> natural language text values. For each data field that can contain
>>>>>>> locale affected or natural language text, there should be an
>>>>>>> associated language tag used to indicate the language and locale
>>>>>>> of the
>>> data.
>>>>>>> This locale information can be used in parsing the data or to
>>>>>>> ensure proper presentation and processing of the value by the
>>> consumer.
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Sorry for not generating a pull request of my own)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Addison
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>>>>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 8:37 AM
>>>>>>>> To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <[hidden email]>; Annette Greiner
>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Phillips, Addison <[hidden email]>; [hidden email];
>>>>>>>> public-dwbp- [hidden email]; www International
>>>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
>>>>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I took an action on today's call to try and address this in BP3.
>>>>>>>> You can see the results at
>>>>>>>>
>>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>>>> This uses some of Addison's text directly and highlights the value
>>>>>>>> of the xsd datatypes - but retains enough of the original BP for
>>>>>>>> it to be an amendment rather than a whole new one - I hope.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This addresses most of the resolution taken today [1] but I have
>>>>>>>> not moved the BP to the formats section. I leave that to the
>>>>>>>> editors who may want to make further changes - or argue for it to
>>>>>>>> be left where it is, or add references from the formats section
>>>>>>>> or, or,
>>> or...
>>>>>>>> I've created the Pull Request https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Phil.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 15/08/2016 17:28, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Dear Ishida,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This comment [1] is still under discussion [4] and we'd like to
>>>>>>>>> ask your opinion about two of our proposals:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. to include locale-neutral representation ideas as part of BP3
>>>>>>>>> [2], or 2. to include a paragraph at the introduction of Section
>>>>>>>>> 8.8 Data Formats [3] to discuss the relevance of having
>>>>>>>>> local-neutral representations.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We also discussed the proposal of having a new BP and we agreed
>>>>>>>>> that we won't have a lot of time for a broader review of the new
>>>>>>>>> BP and to collect feedback from the community.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot!
>>>>>>>>> DWBP editors
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
>>>>>>>>> 2016Jul/0028.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>>>>> [3] https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
>>>>>>>>> [4]
>>>>>>>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009.
>>>>>>>>> ht
>>>>>>>>> ml
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2016-08-04 23:26 GMT+02:00 Annette Greiner <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Hi Addison,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your response, and it does make sense. I think what I
>>>>>>>>>> am still missing is whether there is guidance we can point to as
>>>>>>>>>> to how to represent the "locale-neutral" data so that it can
>>>>>>>>>> most easily be made locale specific by existing tools. You
>>>>>>>>>> mention "pre-made standards for the basic data types". Is there
>>>>>>>>>> a recommended list we could
>>>>>>>> reference?
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for your help!
>>>>>>>>>> -Annette
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 8/4/16 12:31 PM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Annette,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for the note. This is a personal reply not on behalf of
>>>>>>>>>>> the WG.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Locale neutral formats are quite common on the Web and the
>>>>>>>>>>> Internet in general. One familiar format referenced by your
>>>>>>>>>>> document, for example, is XML Schema. While the
>>> representations
>>>>>>>>>>> of numbers, dates, and the like in XML Schema would be "more
>>>>>>>>>>> appropriate" for some languages/locales than others if given as
>>>>>>>>>>> plain text, what distinguishes them is that they are all
>>>>>>>>>>> machine readable and intended to
>>>>>>>> be read by machines for later processing.
>>>>>>>>>>> The display of values is a separate, local, concern for the
>>>>>>>>>>> data's consumer. This necessarily means choosing specific
>>>>>>>>>>> separators (such as decimal separators) over other, more
>>>>>>>>>>> localized values. Save for "free
>>>>>>>> text"
>>>>>>>>>>> (natural language) data, most data formats are locale neutral
>>>>>>>>>>> and these include things like JSON-LD, XML Schema, CSV, and so
>>> forth.
>>>>>>>>>>> Not every possible data structure or data value is, of course,
>>>>>>>>>>> covered fully. For example, in my day job (I work at Amazon),
>>>>>>>>>>> we have many different common measurement units defined
>>> internally.
>>>>>>>>>>> To transmit these in a locale-neutral manner, we need to
>>>>>>>>>>> construct our own data schemas and identifiers. There are
>>>>>>>>>>> profoundly many ways to measure shoes, dresses, auto parts,
>>>>>>>>>>> hats, drone propellers, and so forth. But it would be a
>>>>>>>>>>> nightmare to have to deal with localized
>>>>>>>> presentation formats on top of that.
>>>>>>>>>>> But there are pre-made standards for the basic data types and
>>>>>>>>>>> these are what are needed to build almost any data structure
>>>>>>>>>>> necessary for global interchange of data.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Does that make sense?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Addison
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Addison Phillips
>>>>>>>>>>> Principal SDE, I18N Architect (Amazon) Chair (W3C I18N WG)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Internationalization is not a feature.
>>>>>>>>>>> It is an architecture.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Annette Greiner [mailto:[hidden email]]
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, August 04, 2016 12:04 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: www International <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3 should recommend
>>>>>>>>>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello on behalf of the DWBP WG,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> We're interested in pursuing this concept in our best practice
>>>>>>>>>>>> document, but we would like some clarification of the practice
>>>>>>>>>>>> of locale neutrality.
>>>>>>>>>>>> You
>>>>>>>>>>>> mention the variation across locales in decimal symbol,
>>>>>>>>>>>> grouping symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes,
>>>>>>>>>>>> etc., and you give an example of a locale-neutral data
>>>>>>>>>>>> structure for monetary
>>>>> values.
>>>>>>>>>>>> But this structure alone does not appear to address
>>>>>>>>>>>> differences in decimal symbol, grouping symbol, number of
>>>>>>>>>>>> grouping digits, or digit shapes. It does provide a mechanism
>>>>>>>>>>>> to separately specify the units, and the example uses an
>>>>>>>>>>>> ISO-4217 currency code, both of which we agree are good ideas.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there a broad standard (beyond just monetary) for
>>>>>>>>>>>> addressing the other symbol/representation issues you raised
>>>>>>>>>>>> that we can address
>>>>> briefly in our best practice?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you consider SI units consistent with a locale-neutral
>>> approach?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Is there a locale-neutral standard for representing decimal
>>>>>>>>>>>> numbers (perhaps using a period and no grouping, as in your
>>>>> example)?
>>>>>>>>>>>> -Annette
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/22/16 5:32 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [raised by aphillips]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Best practice #3 introduces itself as:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Providing locale parameters helps humans and computer
>>>>>>>>>>>>> applications to work accurately with things like dates,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> currencies and numbers that may look similar but have
>>>>>>>>>>>>> different meanings in different locales.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But the actual best practice is to use **locale-neutral**
>>>>>>>>>>>>> representations that are interpreted/displayed to end-users
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in a locale-appropriate manner. For example, instead of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> storing the string "€2000.00", exchanging a data structure
>>>>>>>>>>>>> like the following is strongly
>>>>>>>>>>>>> preferred:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "price" {
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       "value": 2000.00,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>       "currency": "EUR"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> }
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ```
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The date examples given are all in xsd:date format, which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> an excellent example of using a locale-neutral format.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many things are dependent on locale: decimal symbol,
>>> grouping
>>>>>>>>>>>>> symbol, number of grouping digits, digit shapes, etc. It's
>>>>>>>>>>>>> because there can be wide variation (sometimes open to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> misinterpretation) that sending a locale neutral format is
>>>>> preferred for data values.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Note also btw that the position of the currency symbol is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> dependent on the locale. In France it would be normal to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> write
>>>>>>>> 2000.00 € rather than €2000.00.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Same even when talking about USD when using $, ie. 2000.00 $.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>>>>>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National
>>>>>>>>>>>> Laboratory
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>>>>>>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services Lawrence Berkeley National
>>>>>>>>>> Laboratory
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Phil Archer
>>>>>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://philarcher.org
>>>>>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>>>>>>> @philarcher1
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Phil Archer
>>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>>>
>>>>> http://philarcher.org
>>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>>>> @philarcher1
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>> Phil Archer
>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>
>>> http://philarcher.org
>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>> @philarcher1
>

--


Phil Archer
W3C Data Activity Lead
http://www.w3.org/2013/data/

http://philarcher.org
+44 (0)7887 767755
@philarcher1