i18n-ISSUE-362: [css-counter-styles] In the document language

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i18n-ISSUE-362: [css-counter-styles] In the document language

r12a
3.9 Speech Synthesis: the speak-as descriptor
http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/#counter-style-speak-as


I guess that 'in the document language' actually means in the language
most recently declared for the text where the counter appears, which may
not be the same as that declared for the document as a whole.

if that is indeed what is meant, i such we make an editorial change to
replace 'in the document language' with something more precise.

(btw, bullets is the only value that doesn't say 'in the document
language", but i think it or its replacement is equally applicable here.
If the list is in French, the French word for the UA defined phrase
needs to be used.)

ri

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Re: i18n-ISSUE-362: [css-counter-styles] In the document language

Martin J. Dürst
On 2015/09/25 02:03, Richard Ishida wrote:
> 3.9 Speech Synthesis: the speak-as descriptor
> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-counter-styles/#counter-style-speak-as
>
>
> I guess that 'in the document language' actually means in the language
> most recently declared

That sounds like tag soup parsing. What we want to say is that it's the
language that applies to the element in question.

A simple example of what I mean:

<ol lang='en'>
   <li>First</li>
   <li lang='fr'>Second</li>
   <li>Third</li>
</ol>

If this is rendered as:

1. First
2. Second
3. Third

and the numbers are spoken as numbers, then I'd expect this to be read:

'one' First
'deux' Second
'three' Third

and not:

'one' First
'deux' Second
'trois' Third

which would be what "the language most recently declared" would imply.

Another question: Are there languages where we need to be able to
distinguish between reading numbers as ordinals and as cardinals? Or
languages where there are other distinctions between numbers that may
have to be made?

Regards,    Martin.



> for the text where the counter appears, which may
> not be the same as that declared for the document as a whole.
>
> if that is indeed what is meant, i such we make an editorial change to
> replace 'in the document language' with something more precise.
>
> (btw, bullets is the only value that doesn't say 'in the document
> language", but i think it or its replacement is equally applicable here.
> If the list is in French, the French word for the UA defined phrase
> needs to be used.)
>
> ri
>
> .
>

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Re: i18n-ISSUE-362: [css-counter-styles] In the document language

r12a
On 25/09/2015 02:37, Martin J. Dürst wrote:

> A simple example of what I mean:
>
> <ol lang='en'>
>    <li>First</li>
>    <li lang='fr'>Second</li>
>    <li>Third</li>
> </ol>
>
> If this is rendered as:
>
> 1. First
> 2. Second
> 3. Third
>
> and the numbers are spoken as numbers, then I'd expect this to be read:
>
> 'one' First
> 'deux' Second
> 'three' Third
>
> and not:
>
> 'one' First
> 'deux' Second
> 'trois' Third
>
> which would be what "the language most recently declared" would imply.

Martin,

i think the language of the numbering should be that of the linguistic
context of the list as a whole, and not determined by the content of the
list item.

In many cases that will quite possibly be the language of the document,
but in the case of, say, a bilingual document in Quebec with parallel
content in both english and french, or a forum with multilingual
responses that are language tagged, etc. then the list's linguistic
context may be determined by language information at the sub-document level.

I can't see a justification for the content of the list item to
influence the pronunciation of the bullet, and i think it would be
confusing to readers to change the language of the numbering.


> Another question: Are there languages where we need to be able to
> distinguish between reading numbers as ordinals and as cardinals? Or
> languages where there are other distinctions between numbers that may
> have to be made?

I suspect that there are some languages where ordinals are used rather
than cardinals, but i expect that in that case the audio generated by
the implementation would just take that into account naturally, no?

ri

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Re: i18n-ISSUE-362: [css-counter-styles] In the document language

Martin J. Dürst
Hello Richard,

On 2015/09/25 15:00, Richard Ishida wrote:

> i think the language of the numbering should be that of the linguistic
> context of the list as a whole, and not determined by the content of the
> list item.
>
> In many cases that will quite possibly be the language of the document,
> but in the case of, say, a bilingual document in Quebec with parallel
> content in both english and french, or a forum with multilingual
> responses that are language tagged, etc. then the list's linguistic
> context may be determined by language information at the sub-document
> level.

That seems to be a very good point.

> I can't see a justification for the content of the list item to
> influence the pronunciation of the bullet, and i think it would be
> confusing to readers to change the language of the numbering.

Then let's clearly say that the language used for pronouncing the list
markers/bullets/numbers is the language that applies to the overall
list. "the language most recently declared" still is wrong, and that was
my main point.

> On 25/09/2015 02:37, Martin J. Dürst wrote:

>> Another question: Are there languages where we need to be able to
>> distinguish between reading numbers as ordinals and as cardinals? Or
>> languages where there are other distinctions between numbers that may
>> have to be made?
>
> I suspect that there are some languages where ordinals are used rather
> than cardinals, but i expect that in that case the audio generated by
> the implementation would just take that into account naturally, no?

For those languages where it's always cardinal or always ordinal, that's
going to be fine. But I suspect that there are languages where that's
not so clear-cut.

In particular, I'm not sure whether I'd use cardinal or ordinal in
German; my gut feeling is that it would depend on the nature of the
list. Actually thinking about it, I get a similar feeling for English,
but I'm not native, so I don't want to attach too much to that.

But let's just look at two examples:


Example 1:

There are three things to remember when leaving the room:
1. Close the windows
2. Switch off air conditioning
3. Switch off the light


Example 2:

Recipe for a cake (very simple):
1. Stir the butter until soft
2. Add sugar and stir until absorbed by butter
3. Add eggs and stir until mass turns lighter in color
4. Add flower and stir slowly until absorbed


I think I'd go for cardinal in example 1, but ordinal in example 2,
especially in there respective German equivalents. The reason is that in
example 1, we are just counting the items; their order isn't
particularly relevant. But in example 2, the order is very relevant.

Anyway, at the moment, it's just a gut feeling, and we might need more
examples and more languages to get a better picture.

Regards,   Martin.

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Re: i18n-ISSUE-362: [css-counter-styles] In the document language

Sebastian Zartner-3
On 25 September 2015 at 08:51, Martin J. Dürst <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hello Richard,
>
> On 2015/09/25 15:00, Richard Ishida wrote:
>
>> i think the language of the numbering should be that of the linguistic
>> context of the list as a whole, and not determined by the content of the
>> list item.
>>
>> In many cases that will quite possibly be the language of the document,
>> but in the case of, say, a bilingual document in Quebec with parallel
>> content in both english and french, or a forum with multilingual
>> responses that are language tagged, etc. then the list's linguistic
>> context may be determined by language information at the sub-document
>> level.
>
>
> That seems to be a very good point.
>
>> I can't see a justification for the content of the list item to
>> influence the pronunciation of the bullet, and i think it would be
>> confusing to readers to change the language of the numbering.
>
>
> Then let's clearly say that the language used for pronouncing the list markers/bullets/numbers is the language that applies to the overall list. "the language most recently declared" still is wrong, and that was my main point.
>
>> On 25/09/2015 02:37, Martin J. Dürst wrote:
>
>
>>> Another question: Are there languages where we need to be able to
>>> distinguish between reading numbers as ordinals and as cardinals? Or
>>> languages where there are other distinctions between numbers that may
>>> have to be made?
>>
>>
>> I suspect that there are some languages where ordinals are used rather
>> than cardinals, but i expect that in that case the audio generated by
>> the implementation would just take that into account naturally, no?
>
>
> For those languages where it's always cardinal or always ordinal, that's going to be fine. But I suspect that there are languages where that's not so clear-cut.
>
> In particular, I'm not sure whether I'd use cardinal or ordinal in German; my gut feeling is that it would depend on the nature of the list. Actually thinking about it, I get a similar feeling for English, but I'm not native, so I don't want to attach too much to that.
>
> But let's just look at two examples:
>
>
> Example 1:
>
> There are three things to remember when leaving the room:
> 1. Close the windows
> 2. Switch off air conditioning
> 3. Switch off the light
>
>
> Example 2:
>
> Recipe for a cake (very simple):
> 1. Stir the butter until soft
> 2. Add sugar and stir until absorbed by butter
> 3. Add eggs and stir until mass turns lighter in color
> 4. Add flower and stir slowly until absorbed
>
>
> I think I'd go for cardinal in example 1, but ordinal in example 2, especially in there respective German equivalents. The reason is that in example 1, we are just counting the items; their order isn't particularly relevant. But in example 2, the order is very relevant.

When you read those two lists in German, you always read them
ordinally (i.e. 'erstens', 'zweitens', 'drittens', 'viertens'). And I
assume it is similar in other languages. If you want them to be read
cardinal, you explicitly need to say so by writing them without the
dot:

1 Close the windows
2 Switch off air conditioning
3 Switch off the light

Or, if the order is not important, it may be an unordered list.

Sebastian

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Re: i18n-ISSUE-362: [css-counter-styles] In the document language

John Cowan-3
In reply to this post by Martin J. Dürst
Martin J. Dürst scripsit:

> I think I'd go for cardinal in example 1, but ordinal in example 2,
> especially in there respective German equivalents.

I'm wondering if the fact that "1." in running text is the standard way
of writing "erste" is influencing you.  How about this?

Recipe for a cake (very simple):
(1) Stir the butter until soft
(2) Add sugar and stir until absorbed by butter
(3) Add eggs and stir until mass turns lighter in color
(4) Add flower and stir slowly until absorbed

--
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        [hidden email]
One of the oil men in heaven started a rumor of a gusher down in hell.  All
the other oil men left in a hurry for hell.  As he gets to thinking about
the rumor he had started he says to himself there might be something in
it after all.  So he leaves for hell in a hurry.    --Carl Sandburg

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Re: i18n-ISSUE-362: [css-counter-styles] In the document language

John Cowan-3
In reply to this post by Sebastian Zartner-3
Sebastian Zartner scripsit:

> When you read those two lists in German, you always read them
> ordinally (i.e. 'erstens', 'zweitens', 'drittens', 'viertens'). And I
> assume it is similar in other languages.

Not at all.  In English it is normal to read numbered lists with cardinals.

--
John Cowan          http://www.ccil.org/~cowan        [hidden email]
He made the Legislature meet at one-horse tank-towns out in the alfalfa
belt, so that hardly nobody could get there and most of the leaders
would stay home and let him go to work and do things as he pleased.
    --H.L. Mencken's translation of the Declaration of Independence