::first-letter on inlines (ID #180)

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::first-letter on inlines (ID #180)

Anne van Kesteren-2

Since when should ::first-letter apply to inline elements[1]?


[1]<http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/html/static/flat/css3-modsel-180.html>


--
Anne van Kesteren
<http://annevankesteren.nl/>
<http://www.opera.com/>


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Re: ::first-letter on inlines (ID #180)

Bert Bos

On Thursday 10 November 2005 16:32, Anne van Kesteren wrote:
> Since when should ::first-letter apply to inline elements[1]?
>
>
> [1]<http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/html/stat
>ic/flat/css3-modsel-180.html>

From 5.12.2:

    "The :first-letter pseudo-element applies to block, list-item,
    table-cell, table-caption and inline-block elements."

I think the test is indeed wrong.



Bert
--
  Bert Bos                                ( W 3 C ) http://www.w3.org/
  http://www.w3.org/people/bos                               W3C/ERCIM
  [hidden email]                             2004 Rt des Lucioles / BP 93
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Re: ::first-letter on inlines (ID #180)

Ian Hickson

On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, Bert Bos wrote:

>
> On Thursday 10 November 2005 16:32, Anne van Kesteren wrote:
> > Since when should ::first-letter apply to inline elements[1]?
> >
> >
> > [1]<http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/html/stat
> >ic/flat/css3-modsel-180.html>
>
> From 5.12.2:
>
>     "The :first-letter pseudo-element applies to block, list-item,
>     table-cell, table-caption and inline-block elements."
>
> I think the test is indeed wrong.

Oh, right, this is one of the things we changed at one point. The current
selectors CR says it applies to all elements; the next draft (and 2.1)
says it doesn't.

Test fixed.

--
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'

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Re: ::first-letter on inlines (ID #180)

Tantek Çelik

On 11/10/05 11:41 AM, "Ian Hickson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, Bert Bos wrote:
>>
>> On Thursday 10 November 2005 16:32, Anne van Kesteren wrote:
>>> Since when should ::first-letter apply to inline elements[1]?
>>>
>>>
>>> [1]<http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/html/stat
>>> ic/flat/css3-modsel-180.html>
>>
>> From 5.12.2:
>>
>>     "The :first-letter pseudo-element applies to block, list-item,
>>     table-cell, table-caption and inline-block elements."
>>
>> I think the test is indeed wrong.
>
> Oh, right, this is one of the things we changed at one point. The current
> selectors CR says it applies to all elements; the next draft (and 2.1)
> says it doesn't.
>
> Test fixed.

I thought the working group decided that this was a legitimate *addition* in
Selectors (but not in 2.1).

Thanks,

Tantek




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Re: ::first-letter on inlines (ID #180)

Ian Hickson
On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, Tantek Çelik wrote:

>
> On 11/10/05 11:41 AM, "Ian Hickson" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, Bert Bos wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thursday 10 November 2005 16:32, Anne van Kesteren wrote:
> >>> Since when should ::first-letter apply to inline elements[1]?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> [1]<http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Test/CSS3/Selectors/current/html/stat
> >>> ic/flat/css3-modsel-180.html>
> >>
> >> From 5.12.2:
> >>
> >>     "The :first-letter pseudo-element applies to block, list-item,
> >>     table-cell, table-caption and inline-block elements."
> >>
> >> I think the test is indeed wrong.
> >
> > Oh, right, this is one of the things we changed at one point. The current
> > selectors CR says it applies to all elements; the next draft (and 2.1)
> > says it doesn't.
> >
> > Test fixed.
>
> I thought the working group decided that this was a legitimate *addition* in
> Selectors (but not in 2.1).
Possible; do we have implementations? I actually think we originally
decided that and then decided otherwise, but I could be wrong.

--
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
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Re: ::first-letter on inlines (ID #180)

Ian Hickson
In reply to this post by Tantek Çelik
On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, Tantek Çelik wrote:

>>>
>>> From 5.12.2:
>>>
>>>     "The :first-letter pseudo-element applies to block, list-item,
>>>     table-cell, table-caption and inline-block elements."
>>>
>>> I think the test is indeed wrong.
>>
>> Oh, right, this is one of the things we changed at one point. The
>> current selectors CR says it applies to all elements; the next draft
>> (and 2.1) says it doesn't.
>>
>> Test fixed.
>
> I thought the working group decided that this was a legitimate
> *addition* in Selectors (but not in 2.1).
We discussed this at the telecon. The consensus was to make :first-letter
only apply to block-level elements in Selectors this time, for simplicity
reasons, consistency with 2.1 which is being published around the same
time, lack of strong use cases, and because it was felt that had a higher
chance of being interoperably implemented. However, it was left open as to
whether we would return to letting :first-letter apply to all elements in
a future release of the Selectors specification.

--
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'
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Re: ::first-letter on inlines (ID #180)

Tantek Çelik

On 11/16/05 1:00 PM, "Ian Hickson" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Nov 2005, Tantek Çelik wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From 5.12.2:
>>>>
>>>>     "The :first-letter pseudo-element applies to block, list-item,
>>>>     table-cell, table-caption and inline-block elements."
>>>>
>>>> I think the test is indeed wrong.
>>>
>>> Oh, right, this is one of the things we changed at one point. The
>>> current selectors CR says it applies to all elements; the next draft
>>> (and 2.1) says it doesn't.
>>>
>>> Test fixed.
>>
>> I thought the working group decided that this was a legitimate
>> *addition* in Selectors (but not in 2.1).
>
> We discussed this at the telecon. The consensus was to make :first-letter
> only apply to block-level elements in Selectors this time, for simplicity
> reasons, consistency with 2.1 which is being published around the same
> time, lack of strong use cases,

I will dig out the real world print/layout examples of first-letter effects
on inlines for the next f2f. I thought I had already done this, but I can
check again.

> and because it was felt that had a higher
> chance of being interoperably implemented. However, it was left open as to
> whether we would return to letting :first-letter apply to all elements in
> a future release of the Selectors specification.

I accept this resolution.

My only concern is that we DO NOT put in a test case which shows red for a
UA that *does* support :first-letter on an inline in order to truly leave
open this possibility in a future release of Selectors specification.

Thanks,

Tantek


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Re: ::first-letter on inlines (ID #180)

Ian Hickson
On Thu, 17 Nov 2005, Tantek [ISO-8859-1] Çelik wrote:
> >
> > lack of strong use cases,
>
> I will dig out the real world print/layout examples of first-letter
> effects on inlines for the next f2f. I thought I had already done this,
> but I can check again.

Lock of _strong_ use cases, not lack of use cases altogether. :-)


> My only concern is that we DO NOT put in a test case which shows red for
> a UA that *does* support :first-letter on an inline in order to truly
> leave open this possibility in a future release of Selectors
> specification.

Agreed. I've removed test 180 from the test suite.

--
Ian Hickson               U+1047E                )\._.,--....,'``.    fL
http://ln.hixie.ch/       U+263A                /,   _.. \   _\  ;`._ ,.
Things that are impossible just take longer.   `._.-(,_..'--(,_..'`-.;.'