[css3-page] Additional page sizes

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[css3-page] Additional page sizes

Florian Rivoal-4
CSS-Page supports a short list of predefined paper/page sizes for the size property http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-page/#page-size-prop

A5, A4, A3, B5, B4, letter, legal, ledger

The B4 and B5 sizes included are very confusing for Japanese users, as they are defined as ISO B4 (250×353mm) and ISO B5 (176×250mm), different from the JIS-B4 (257×364mm) and JIS-B5 (182×257mm) commonly used in Japan.

I suggest adding JIS-B4 and JIS-B5 to the list, as well as ISO-B4 and ISO-B5 as aliases to B4 and B5 for clarity.

There are many more paper formats we could consider, and for instance Antenna House supports the following http://www.antennahouse.com/product/ahf60/docs/ahf-ext.html#axf.size

I would support extending the list in the specification in that direction, but resolving the ambiguity and confusion with regards to the B series seems higher priority.

 - Florian


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Re: [css3-page] Additional page sizes

Liam R. E. Quin
On 2015-10-31 06:24, Florian Rivoal wrote:

> CSS-Page supports a short list of predefined paper/page sizes for the
> size property http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-page/#page-size-prop
>
> A5, A4, A3, B5, B4, letter, legal, ledger
>
> The B4 and B5 sizes included are very confusing for Japanese users, as
> they are defined as ISO B4 (250×353mm) and ISO B5 (176×250mm),
> different from the JIS-B4 (257×364mm) and JIS-B5 (182×257mm) commonly
> used in Japan.
>
> I suggest adding JIS-B4 and JIS-B5 to the list,

+1

>  as well as ISO-B4 and
> ISO-B5 as aliases to B4 and B5 for clarity.
I'm not in favour of this unless its worded as "implementations must
also accept...",
because a drop-down list with all the ISO sizes prefixed by ISO would be
quite irritating, especially for US and Canada people who'd have to
scroll past them all to get to US Letter, US Legal and US Tabloid.  :-)

> There are many more paper formats we could consider, and for instance
> Antenna House supports the following
> http://www.antennahouse.com/product/ahf60/docs/ahf-ext.html#axf.size
>
> I would support extending the list in the specification in that
> direction, but resolving the ambiguity and confusion with regards to
> the B series seems higher priority.

Envelope sizes are worth including (in North America especially
"envelope #10"), but once you get beyond the sizes that come in printer
description files it's generally easier for people to specify sizes in
inches/mm/feet/metres (e.g. for a large poster printed on a 4'-wide
inkjet). There are whole series like SRA (e.g. SRA4, SRA3) and ANSI
variants such as A3+ / Super B / B+) for printing with bleed and/or crop
marks and colour lines.

A shorter list is more helpful in a UI, and the AH one seems a little
arbitrary, but I strongly agree with you about the confusing sizes.

Liam

>
>  - Florian

--
Liam Quin, W3C
XML Activity Lead;
Digital publishing; HTML Accessibility

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Re: [css3-page] Additional page sizes

Martin J. Dürst


On 2015/11/02 06:11, Liam Quin wrote:

> On 2015-10-31 06:24, Florian Rivoal wrote:
>> CSS-Page supports a short list of predefined paper/page sizes for the
>> size property http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-page/#page-size-prop
>>
>> A5, A4, A3, B5, B4, letter, legal, ledger
>>
>> The B4 and B5 sizes included are very confusing for Japanese users, as
>> they are defined as ISO B4 (250×353mm) and ISO B5 (176×250mm),
>> different from the JIS-B4 (257×364mm) and JIS-B5 (182×257mm) commonly
>> used in Japan.
>>
>> I suggest adding JIS-B4 and JIS-B5 to the list,
>
> +1

I suggest we should check this a bit more. I was surprised to learn that
the ISO and the JIS series of B sizes were different. I have never seen
a product that would show more than one 'B4', 'B5', or whatever label,
in particular not in Japan, where these sizes are used very actively. I
also haven't seen such indications on priters' paper trays, even though
these come with 'letter' e.g. in Japan and with 'B4' or so in the US
(i.e. there seem to be single models for the whole world).

I think we should get more information on what actually happens in the
current infrastructure before adding these additional labels. One thing
to do would be to measure the actual size of 'B4' and 'B5' on printer
trays in various countries (Europe, US, Japan).

Regards,   Martin.

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Re: [css3-page] Additional page sizes

Florian Rivoal-4
In reply to this post by Liam R. E. Quin

> On 02 Nov 2015, at 06:11, Liam Quin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 2015-10-31 06:24, Florian Rivoal wrote:
>> CSS-Page supports a short list of predefined paper/page sizes for the
>> size property http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-page/#page-size-prop
>> A5, A4, A3, B5, B4, letter, legal, ledger
>> The B4 and B5 sizes included are very confusing for Japanese users, as
>> they are defined as ISO B4 (250×353mm) and ISO B5 (176×250mm),
>> different from the JIS-B4 (257×364mm) and JIS-B5 (182×257mm) commonly
>> used in Japan.
>> I suggest adding JIS-B4 and JIS-B5 to the list,
>
> +1
>
>> as well as ISO-B4 and
>> ISO-B5 as aliases to B4 and B5 for clarity.
> I'm not in favour of this unless its worded as "implementations must also accept...",
> because a drop-down list with all the ISO sizes prefixed by ISO would be quite irritating, especially for US and Canada people who'd have to scroll past them all to get to US Letter, US Legal and US Tabloid.  :-)

So we'd bias in favor of ISO against JIS for the prefix-less name. On the one hand, many more countries use ISO than JIS, but on the other hand, the B series (JIS) is common in Japan, and I am not sure it is elsewhere. I had at least never heard of it in France.

>> There are many more paper formats we could consider, and for instance
>> Antenna House supports the following
>> http://www.antennahouse.com/product/ahf60/docs/ahf-ext.html#axf.size
>> I would support extending the list in the specification in that
>> direction, but resolving the ambiguity and confusion with regards to
>> the B series seems higher priority.
>
> Envelope sizes are worth including (in North America especially "envelope #10"), but once you get beyond the sizes that come in printer description files it's generally easier for people to specify sizes in inches/mm/feet/metres (e.g. for a large poster printed on a 4'-wide inkjet). There are whole series like SRA (e.g. SRA4, SRA3) and ANSI variants such as A3+ / Super B / B+) for printing with bleed and/or crop marks and colour lines.

I'd punt on envelopes for now (and maybe forever), for a few reasons:

- Envelopes often have windows, making it a complicated format (not simply a rectangle)
- Window positions vary per country, even for the same overall envelope size, causing an explosion of variants.
- Most other paper formats where you can print to the edge of the paper by printing on a larger sheet of paper into the bleed area and then cutting. Typically with envelopes you cannot do that, and there is an unprintable margin whose width depends on the equipment used.

All in all, when working with envelopes, you're often unlikely to get anything useful out of a standard size. You need to know which sub-variant of the standard size, and which printing equipment is being used, and specify physical sizes yourself.

> A shorter list is more helpful in a UI,

True.

> and the AH one seems a little arbitrary,

I think some in the list do make sense (e.g. "Hagaki", the standard Japan post card size, used for personal and commercial communication), but this is probably a fairly subjective choice, and I don't have data to suggest an objective list.

 - Florian


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Re: [css3-page] Additional page sizes

Florian Rivoal-4
In reply to this post by Martin J. Dürst

> On 02 Nov 2015, at 09:57, Martin J. Dürst <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 2015/11/02 06:11, Liam Quin wrote:
>> On 2015-10-31 06:24, Florian Rivoal wrote:
>>> CSS-Page supports a short list of predefined paper/page sizes for the
>>> size property http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-page/#page-size-prop
>>>
>>> A5, A4, A3, B5, B4, letter, legal, ledger
>>>
>>> The B4 and B5 sizes included are very confusing for Japanese users, as
>>> they are defined as ISO B4 (250×353mm) and ISO B5 (176×250mm),
>>> different from the JIS-B4 (257×364mm) and JIS-B5 (182×257mm) commonly
>>> used in Japan.
>>>
>>> I suggest adding JIS-B4 and JIS-B5 to the list,
>>
>> +1
>
> I suggest we should check this a bit more. I was surprised to learn that the ISO and the JIS series of B sizes were different.

Yet they are:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_size#Japanese_B-series_variant

> I have never seen a product that would show more than one 'B4', 'B5', or whatever label, in particular not in Japan, where these sizes are used very actively.

I suspect that's simply because no country uses both the ISO B and JIS B series, so there's not need to tell them apart usually.

> I also haven't seen such indications on priters' paper trays, even though these come with 'letter' e.g. in Japan and with 'B4' or so in the US (i.e. there seem to be single models for the whole world).

I am not so sure that printer models are the same everywhere (let alone paper trays).

> I think we should get more information on what actually happens in the current infrastructure before adding these additional labels. One thing to do would be to measure the actual size of 'B4' and 'B5' on printer trays in various countries (Europe, US, Japan).

We could do that, but I don't think there is much doubt about the fact that:
* The B series is in common use in Japan
* The B series used in Japan is the JIS one

Here are two extra source, and google will produce many more if asked:
 http://sizes.com/materials/paperJapan.htm
 http://www.edsebooks.com/paper/jpaper.html

- Florian
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Re: [css3-page] Additional page sizes

Martin J. Dürst
In reply to this post by Florian Rivoal-4
On 2015/11/02 23:34, Florian Rivoal wrote:
>
>> On 02 Nov 2015, at 06:11, Liam Quin <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>> as well as ISO-B4 and
>>> ISO-B5 as aliases to B4 and B5 for clarity.
>> I'm not in favour of this unless its worded as "implementations must also accept...",
>> because a drop-down list with all the ISO sizes prefixed by ISO would be quite irritating, especially for US and Canada people who'd have to scroll past them all to get to US Letter, US Legal and US Tabloid.  :-)
>
> So we'd bias in favor of ISO against JIS for the prefix-less name. On the one hand, many more countries use ISO than JIS, but on the other hand, the B series (JIS) is common in Japan, and I am not sure it is elsewhere. I had at least never heard of it in France.

Not in Switzerland either. We always used to think about the B series as
a series for envelopes, not paper.

Regards,   Martin.

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Re: [css3-page] Additional page sizes

Tony Graham-5
In reply to this post by Liam R. E. Quin
On 01/11/2015 21:11, Liam Quin wrote:
> On 2015-10-31 06:24, Florian Rivoal wrote:
...

>> I suggest adding JIS-B4 and JIS-B5 to the list,
>
> +1
>
>>  as well as ISO-B4 and
>> ISO-B5 as aliases to B4 and B5 for clarity.
> I'm not in favour of this unless its worded as "implementations must
> also accept...",
> because a drop-down list with all the ISO sizes prefixed by ISO would be
> quite irritating, especially for US and Canada people who'd have to
> scroll past them all to get to US Letter, US Legal and US Tabloid.  :-)
This is for use in CSS files. Few people would have a drop-down list
appear when editing 'size' properties in a CSS file, and fewer still
would have a drop-down list that didn't also refine the list of values
as you type.

That said, there is a drop-down list in the AH Formatter GUI for setting
the default page size [1].

IME, printer manufacturers tend to sort 'L' before 'A' in their GUIs
anyway (see attached).

>> There are many more paper formats we could consider, and for instance
>> Antenna House supports the following
>> http://www.antennahouse.com/product/ahf60/docs/ahf-ext.html#axf.size
...
> A shorter list is more helpful in a UI, and the AH one seems a little
> arbitrary, but I strongly agree with you about the confusing sizes.

Possibly no more arbitrary than including 'ledger' in the CSS3 Page
<page-size> list [2]. I don't recall seeing, let alone printing on,
ledger size paper when I lived in the USA.

It seems the 'b4' and 'b5' sizes were first put forward for the list
that was finally adopted just because they are "roughly the same range
as the common North American sizes" [3]. The JIS sizes had been first
mentioned in the second ever message about page size keywords [4] nearly
a year earlier.

Regards,


Tony Graham.
--
Senior Architect
XML Division
Antenna House, Inc.
----
Skerries, Ireland
[hidden email]

[1]
http://www.antennahouse.com/product/ahf60/docs/ahf-gui.html#page-setting-page
[2] http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-css3-page-20130314/#page-size-prop
[3] "For the ISO sizes, it probably would be best to ask a European"
     http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2004Jan/0192.html
[4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2003Apr/0073.html

l-before-a.png (77K) Download Attachment
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Re: [css3-page] Additional page sizes

Koji Ishii
In reply to this post by Florian Rivoal-4
2015-11-03 9:39 GMT+09:00 Florian Rivoal <[hidden email]>:

> On 02 Nov 2015, at 09:57, Martin J. Dürst <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have never seen a product that would show more than one 'B4', 'B5', or whatever label, in particular not in Japan, where these sizes are used very actively.

I suspect that's simply because no country uses both the ISO B and JIS B series, so there's not need to tell them apart usually.

Photoshop and Acrobat have "B4 (JIS)" and "B4 (ISO)", at least in Japanese version.

/koji 

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Re: [css3-page] Additional page sizes

Koji Ishii
2015-11-03 22:11 GMT+09:00 Koji Ishii <[hidden email]>:
2015-11-03 9:39 GMT+09:00 Florian Rivoal <[hidden email]>:

> On 02 Nov 2015, at 09:57, Martin J. Dürst <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have never seen a product that would show more than one 'B4', 'B5', or whatever label, in particular not in Japan, where these sizes are used very actively.

I suspect that's simply because no country uses both the ISO B and JIS B series, so there's not need to tell them apart usually.

Photoshop and Acrobat have "B4 (JIS)" and "B4 (ISO)", at least in Japanese version.

Went too early...

My Mac with Japanese printer connected has only one B5, but the labels are:
  A4
  JIS B5
  US Letter
  US Legal

I'm not, however, in favor to make the list long, especially when these complexities were involved. It's applications' responsibility to populate appropriate list in UI, and not all of them need to be defined in CSS. I mean, I have mild preference to drop B-series.

/koji