[css-color] vendor named color enhancement

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[css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Alex Cohen
Hello,


My name is Alex Cohen and I work for X-Rite/PANTONE.


For a while now I’ve been contemplating the idea of extending css named colors to include vendor specific colors that are used across other industries such as print. Before going ahead and writing up a full proposal, I want to get the opinion of the people on this list to see if it is something you might be interested in.


The idea is pretty simple. As you probably already know, Pantone is pretty well known across the printing industry for it’s color standards. Designers can specify Pantone color in a simple and efficient manner and rest assured that the final output product will reflect what they imagined. We want to apply that same concept to the web.


A good example I like to use is a can of Coke. Wherever you are, anywhere you go, you will recognize the red they use, it’s their “brand” color. It’s important that this color be reproduced correctly across all their manufacturing plants so that you can compare two cans printed in totally different locations and not see a difference in color.


The same could be applied to the web through a new set of vendor specific css color names.


We’ve done a couple of trials here at Pantone and have gotten some exciting results. We have a patch submitted to WebKit which shows the idea in a working state.


https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159963


A quick idea of how the vendor specific naming could work:

  *   start with a vendor specific prefix.
  *   continue with a color specific indicator.
  *   finish with a book marker.


Example:

Actual PANTONE Color Name: PANTONE 101 C

Web PANTONE Color Name: p101c


Curious to know what you think.


regards,

Alex Cohen

X-Rite/PANTONE

[hidden email]

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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Ambrose Li-3
2016-07-21 16:16 GMT-04:00 Alex Cohen <[hidden email]>:
> Example:
>
> Actual PANTONE Color Name: PANTONE 101 C
>
> Web PANTONE Color Name: p101c
>
>
> Curious to know what you think.

Quick thoughts (more like old thoughts that have not been given new
consideration, so these might be quite out of date):

1. How do you actually ensure colour accuracy on the web? To me this
is pretty impossible, which means designers are just given a false
sense of assurance, when the web site visitor can actually be looking
at something very unlike the specified colour.

(This is a problem even with PDF files (there are Pantone colours that
look very different from what's intended when viewed on a PC without
Adobe software installed, for example) and I can't see how you can
solve this problem on the web.)

2. What will happen when the page is viewed using browsers that do not
support the vendor extension? For example, will all Pantone (i.e.,
unknown/unsupported) colours end up appearing as black? If not black
will the colours actually match?

--
Ambrose Li // http://o.gniw.ca / http://gniw.ca
If you saw this on CE-L: You do not need my permission to quote
me, only proper attribution. Always cite your sources, even if
you have to anonymize and/or cite it as "personal communication".

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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Mike Taylor
In reply to this post by Alex Cohen
Hi Alex,

On 7/21/16 3:16 PM, Alex Cohen wrote:
> The idea is pretty simple. As you probably already know, Pantone is pretty well known across the printing industry for it’s color standards. Designers can specify Pantone color in a simple and efficient manner and rest assured that the final output product will reflect what they imagined. We want to apply that same concept to the web.
>
>
> A good example I like to use is a can of Coke. Wherever you are, anywhere you go, you will recognize the red they use, it’s their “brand” color. It’s important that this color be reproduced correctly across all their manufacturing plants so that you can compare two cans printed in totally different locations and not see a difference in color.
>
>
> The same could be applied to the web through a new set of vendor specific css color names.

You can already do this on the web today with css variables, right?

`--coke-red: rgb(244, 0, 0)`

> Example:
>
> Actual PANTONE Color Name: PANTONE 101 C
>
> Web PANTONE Color Name: p101c

IANAL, but does this mean Pantone wants to change its Terms of Use[1][2]
to allow me to author code which produces exact pantone values?

[1] <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantone#Intellectual_property>
[2] <http://www.pantone.com/terms-of-use>

--
Mike Taylor
Web Compat, Mozilla

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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Felix Miata-2
In reply to this post by Alex Cohen
Alex Cohen composed on 2016-07-21 20:16 (UTC):

> Curious to know what you think.

Pie in the sky? Computer displays are little different from TVs. Once they've
left the assembly line, you can't expect any two different examples of the
same model to produce the same colors, much less the many disparate models
produced over time, and so even less colors that faithfully reproduce colors
used in print or real life objects. The best you can hope for from the web is
an approximation of your intent.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Henrik Andersson
Felix Miata skrev:

> Alex Cohen composed on 2016-07-21 20:16 (UTC):
>
>> Curious to know what you think.
>
> Pie in the sky? Computer displays are little different from TVs. Once
> they've left the assembly line, you can't expect any two different
> examples of the same model to produce the same colors, much less the
> many disparate models produced over time, and so even less colors that
> faithfully reproduce colors used in print or real life objects. The
> best you can hope for from the web is an approximation of your intent.
Is that before or after users mess things up by abusing the brightness,
contrast and color settings?

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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Amelia Bellamy-Royds
In reply to this post by Alex Cohen
Alex:

You'll want to look at the draft CSS Color Level 4 specification section on defining colors relative to device-calibrated color profiles:


This syntax is designed to be extensible to any new color-definition system against which printers and digital displays could be calibrated.  Although the pre-defined profiles currently in the spec use numeric values, keyword values are also possible.  

Given the wide use of Pantone colours in printing and industrial design, I'm suspect CSS WG members would be open to integrating it in the spec as a pre-defined color profile, if all IP issues could be resolved with Pantone in a manner that met W3C's patent requirements.

Otherwise, the syntax is designed to allow authors & printers/display manufacturers to specify custom color systems without them having to be added to the spec.

All of this is still a separate issue from calibrating printers / and digital displays against Pantone standards, so that they correctly display the named color.  As others have mentioned, that's a tricky question when dealing with web content.  However, the new syntax would ensure that if the display or printer is calibrated, authors would have a standard way of communicating the desired color.

(PS, I'm not a member of this working group, just someone who's been following the discussion.  Chris Lilley & Tab Atkins, the editors of CSS Color Level 4, would be your best contacts for deciding on next steps.) 

~Amelia Bellamy-Royds

On 21 July 2016 at 14:16, Alex Cohen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,


My name is Alex Cohen and I work for X-Rite/PANTONE.


For a while now I’ve been contemplating the idea of extending css named colors to include vendor specific colors that are used across other industries such as print. Before going ahead and writing up a full proposal, I want to get the opinion of the people on this list to see if it is something you might be interested in.


The idea is pretty simple. As you probably already know, Pantone is pretty well known across the printing industry for it’s color standards. Designers can specify Pantone color in a simple and efficient manner and rest assured that the final output product will reflect what they imagined. We want to apply that same concept to the web.


A good example I like to use is a can of Coke. Wherever you are, anywhere you go, you will recognize the red they use, it’s their “brand” color. It’s important that this color be reproduced correctly across all their manufacturing plants so that you can compare two cans printed in totally different locations and not see a difference in color.


The same could be applied to the web through a new set of vendor specific css color names.


We’ve done a couple of trials here at Pantone and have gotten some exciting results. We have a patch submitted to WebKit which shows the idea in a working state.


https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159963


A quick idea of how the vendor specific naming could work:

  *   start with a vendor specific prefix.
  *   continue with a color specific indicator.
  *   finish with a book marker.


Example:

Actual PANTONE Color Name: PANTONE 101 C

Web PANTONE Color Name: p101c


Curious to know what you think.


regards,

Alex Cohen

X-Rite/PANTONE

[hidden email]


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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Felix Miata-2
In reply to this post by Henrik Andersson
Henrik Andersson composed on 2016-07-22 23:22 (UTC+0200):

> Felix Miata composed, in English:

>> Alex Cohen composed on 2016-07-21 20:16 (UTC):

>>> Curious to know what you think.

>> Pie in the sky? Computer displays are little different from TVs. Once
>> they've left the assembly line, you can't expect any two different
>> examples of the same model to produce the same colors, much less the
>> many disparate models produced over time, and so even less colors that
>> faithfully reproduce colors used in print or real life objects. The
>> best you can hope for from the web is an approximation of your intent.

> Is that before or after users mess things up by abusing the brightness,
> contrast and color settings?

Before or after typical deterioration from normal aging, or accelerated aging
from web-induced compensatory adjusting settings up, also?

More often than not, manufacturers/vendors are the initial abusers, at least
with models priced to sell in volume. If nothing has changed in recent years,
they're set too high, often at 90% or above, not unusually at 100%, in order
that situated on shelves in brightly lit retail stores they don't stand out
worse than their neighbors, and so potential buyers don't assume them defective.

(What else explains the abusive(?)/naive(?) web design community, instead of
maximizing legibility, using merely "passing" contrast ratio muted colors and
grays, with sizes an arbitrary fraction of optimal, where in print would be
used bold colors, bright whites and black, in actual physical sizes expected
to be adequate for the vast majority of intended targets?)
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

  Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Kevin Suttle
In reply to this post by Amelia Bellamy-Royds
I did a lot of research on color naming relatively recently. The very real problem is that there are not nearly enough color names to cover every possible value, even before alpha and color profile are factored into the scope. That means, even with CSS colors, X11 colors, Crayola, and the formerly expanded Pantone catalog, we're still well short. Believe it or not, HEX actually is the most fitting and covers the widest spectrum. 
 
I've since approached the folks at schema.org to discuss what a standardized color schema could look like. 
 
 
 
KS
 
 
----- Original message -----
From: "Amelia Bellamy-Royds" <[hidden email]>
To: Alex Cohen <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement
Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 15:30:17 -0600
 
Alex:
 
You'll want to look at the draft CSS Color Level 4 specification section on defining colors relative to device-calibrated color profiles:
 
 
This syntax is designed to be extensible to any new color-definition system against which printers and digital displays could be calibrated.  Although the pre-defined profiles currently in the spec use numeric values, keyword values are also possible.  
 
Given the wide use of Pantone colours in printing and industrial design, I'm suspect CSS WG members would be open to integrating it in the spec as a pre-defined color profile, if all IP issues could be resolved with Pantone in a manner that met W3C's patent requirements.
 
Otherwise, the syntax is designed to allow authors & printers/display manufacturers to specify custom color systems without them having to be added to the spec.
 
All of this is still a separate issue from calibrating printers / and digital displays against Pantone standards, so that they correctly display the named color.  As others have mentioned, that's a tricky question when dealing with web content.  However, the new syntax would ensure that if the display or printer is calibrated, authors would have a standard way of communicating the desired color.
 
(PS, I'm not a member of this working group, just someone who's been following the discussion.  Chris Lilley & Tab Atkins, the editors of CSS Color Level 4, would be your best contacts for deciding on next steps..) 
 
~Amelia Bellamy-Royds
 
On 21 July 2016 at 14:16, Alex Cohen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,
 
 
My name is Alex Cohen and I work for X-Rite/PANTONE.
 
 
For a while now I’ve been contemplating the idea of extending css named colors to include vendor specific colors that are used across other industries such as print. Before going ahead and writing up a full proposal, I want to get the opinion of the people on this list to see if it is something you might be interested in.
 
 
The idea is pretty simple. As you probably already know, Pantone is pretty well known across the printing industry for it’s color standards. Designers can specify Pantone color in a simple and efficient manner and rest assured that the final output product will reflect what they imagined. We want to apply that same concept to the web.
 
 
A good example I like to use is a can of Coke. Wherever you are, anywhere you go, you will recognize the red they use, it’s their “brand” color. It’s important that this color be reproduced correctly across all their manufacturing plants so that you can compare two cans printed in totally different locations and not see a difference in color.
 
 
The same could be applied to the web through a new set of vendor specific css color names.
 
 
We’ve done a couple of trials here at Pantone and have gotten some exciting results. We have a patch submitted to WebKit which shows the idea in a working state.
 
 
 
 
A quick idea of how the vendor specific naming could work:
 
*   start with a vendor specific prefix.
*   continue with a color specific indicator.
*   finish with a book marker.
 
 
Example:
 
Actual PANTONE Color Name: PANTONE 101 C
 
Web PANTONE Color Name: p101c
 
 
Curious to know what you think.
 
 
regards,
 
Alex Cohen
 
X-Rite/PANTONE
 
 
 
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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Tab Atkins Jr.
In reply to this post by Amelia Bellamy-Royds
On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Amelia Bellamy-Royds
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 21 July 2016 at 14:16, Alex Cohen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> For a while now I’ve been contemplating the idea of extending css named
>> colors to include vendor specific colors that are used across other
>> industries such as print. Before going ahead and writing up a full proposal,
>> I want to get the opinion of the people on this list to see if it is
>> something you might be interested in.
>>
>> The idea is pretty simple. As you probably already know, Pantone is pretty
>> well known across the printing industry for it’s color standards. Designers
>> can specify Pantone color in a simple and efficient manner and rest assured
>> that the final output product will reflect what they imagined. We want to
>> apply that same concept to the web.
>>
>> A good example I like to use is a can of Coke. Wherever you are, anywhere
>> you go, you will recognize the red they use, it’s their “brand” color. It’s
>> important that this color be reproduced correctly across all their
>> manufacturing plants so that you can compare two cans printed in totally
>> different locations and not see a difference in color.
>>
>> The same could be applied to the web through a new set of vendor specific
>> css color names.
>>
>> We’ve done a couple of trials here at Pantone and have gotten some
>> exciting results. We have a patch submitted to WebKit which shows the idea
>> in a working state.
>>
>> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159963
>>
>> A quick idea of how the vendor specific naming could work:
>>
>>   *   start with a vendor specific prefix.
>>   *   continue with a color specific indicator.
>>   *   finish with a book marker.
>>
>>
>> Example:
>>
>> Actual PANTONE Color Name: PANTONE 101 C
>>
>> Web PANTONE Color Name: p101c
>
> You'll want to look at the draft CSS Color Level 4 specification section on
> defining colors relative to device-calibrated color profiles:
>
> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-color/Overview.html#icc-colors
>
> This syntax is designed to be extensible to any new color-definition system
> against which printers and digital displays could be calibrated.  Although
> the pre-defined profiles currently in the spec use numeric values, keyword
> values are also possible.
>
> Given the wide use of Pantone colours in printing and industrial design, I'm
> suspect CSS WG members would be open to integrating it in the spec as a
> pre-defined color profile, if all IP issues could be resolved with Pantone
> in a manner that met W3C's patent requirements.
>
> Otherwise, the syntax is designed to allow authors & printers/display
> manufacturers to specify custom color systems without them having to be
> added to the spec.
>
> All of this is still a separate issue from calibrating printers / and
> digital displays against Pantone standards, so that they correctly display
> the named color.  As others have mentioned, that's a tricky question when
> dealing with web content.  However, the new syntax would ensure that if the
> display or printer is calibrated, authors would have a standard way of
> communicating the desired color.
>
> (PS, I'm not a member of this working group, just someone who's been
> following the discussion.  Chris Lilley & Tab Atkins, the editors of CSS
> Color Level 4, would be your best contacts for deciding on next steps.)

Haha, Amelia, you beat me to it!

Yes, what Amelia said exactly.  We *just* added a syntax for
specifying colors in arbitrary color profiles.  For example, to
specify a color in the Rec.2020 colorspace, you can write something
like `color(rec2020 .1 .2 .3)` (I'm not sure what all arguments the
Rec.2020 colorspace takes, but assuming it's a red, green, and blue
value, that exactly is correct).

We also have a syntax for colorspaces that define named colors instead
of exposing numeric channels: `color(pantone "101 C")` is how we would
write your example color, assuming we had a Pantone colorspace
builtin.

We'd love to work with you to get a royalty-free reference for the
Pantone color system, suitable for wide implementation in browsers, to
aid in printing and color management for companies using the Pantone
standards.  If you can help with that, great! The "royalty-free" part
has been what's blocked us in the past, or else we would have already
added it, given the evident demand.  The W3C has strict requirements
on what kinds of things it allows to be standardized.

~TJ

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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Alex Cohen
It’s great to see so much interest. We love where the color module level 4 is going and think it will bring color to a whole new level on the web.

As a quick note, what I’m about to say is not a promise in any way, shape or form that Pantone will change it’s ways or that it will change it’s product structure, this is just a discussion, for now.

I’d like to address Pantone IP. Pantone has been, to say it lightly, a bully regarding it’s IP. Some consider it non-sensical, other consider it to be the basis of their business model. I consider it to be a bit of both. There is a growing feeling that Pantone needs to loosen their grip.

To me, Pantone is a nomenclature for color ( just like everyone knows what green looks like, a lot of people know what PANTONE 101 C looks like - it’s a yellow ). It is also a business that sells the information on how to reproduce that color. The separation of the two is very important.

We need more than nomenclature to render a color on the web, which is why Pantone might be willing to loosen it’s Terms of use regarding the sRGB data for it’s colors. This is a discussion that we would need to have, but it’s looking good. I think sRGB will do the trick as a first step. We don’t want or expect perfect reproduction on the web, we just want a good approximation.

The real goal is to specify the color using the names, which in a sense, means so much more than the data.

Tab, If Pantone is something the W3C is interested in, I can definitely help out, I want to help out. Anything I can do, I will do.

AC


On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 7:33 PM, Tab Atkins Jr. <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Amelia Bellamy-Royds
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 21 July 2016 at 14:16, Alex Cohen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> For a while now I’ve been contemplating the idea of extending css named
>> colors to include vendor specific colors that are used across other
>> industries such as print. Before going ahead and writing up a full proposal,
>> I want to get the opinion of the people on this list to see if it is
>> something you might be interested in.
>>
>> The idea is pretty simple. As you probably already know, Pantone is pretty
>> well known across the printing industry for it’s color standards. Designers
>> can specify Pantone color in a simple and efficient manner and rest assured
>> that the final output product will reflect what they imagined. We want to
>> apply that same concept to the web.
>>
>> A good example I like to use is a can of Coke. Wherever you are, anywhere
>> you go, you will recognize the red they use, it’s their “brand” color. It’s
>> important that this color be reproduced correctly across all their
>> manufacturing plants so that you can compare two cans printed in totally
>> different locations and not see a difference in color.
>>
>> The same could be applied to the web through a new set of vendor specific
>> css color names.
>>
>> We’ve done a couple of trials here at Pantone and have gotten some
>> exciting results. We have a patch submitted to WebKit which shows the idea
>> in a working state.
>>
>> https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159963
>>
>> A quick idea of how the vendor specific naming could work:
>>
>> * start with a vendor specific prefix.
>> * continue with a color specific indicator.
>> * finish with a book marker.
>>
>>
>> Example:
>>
>> Actual PANTONE Color Name: PANTONE 101 C
>>
>> Web PANTONE Color Name: p101c
>
> You'll want to look at the draft CSS Color Level 4 specification section on
> defining colors relative to device-calibrated color profiles:
>
> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-color/Overview.html#icc-colors
>
> This syntax is designed to be extensible to any new color-definition system
> against which printers and digital displays could be calibrated. Although
> the pre-defined profiles currently in the spec use numeric values, keyword
> values are also possible.
>
> Given the wide use of Pantone colours in printing and industrial design, I'm
> suspect CSS WG members would be open to integrating it in the spec as a
> pre-defined color profile, if all IP issues could be resolved with Pantone
> in a manner that met W3C's patent requirements.
>
> Otherwise, the syntax is designed to allow authors & printers/display
> manufacturers to specify custom color systems without them having to be
> added to the spec.
>
> All of this is still a separate issue from calibrating printers / and
> digital displays against Pantone standards, so that they correctly display
> the named color. As others have mentioned, that's a tricky question when
> dealing with web content. However, the new syntax would ensure that if the
> display or printer is calibrated, authors would have a standard way of
> communicating the desired color.
>
> (PS, I'm not a member of this working group, just someone who's been
> following the discussion. Chris Lilley & Tab Atkins, the editors of CSS
> Color Level 4, would be your best contacts for deciding on next steps.)

Haha, Amelia, you beat me to it!

Yes, what Amelia said exactly. We *just* added a syntax for
specifying colors in arbitrary color profiles. For example, to
specify a color in the Rec.2020 colorspace, you can write something
like `color(rec2020 .1 .2 .3)` (I'm not sure what all arguments the
Rec.2020 colorspace takes, but assuming it's a red, green, and blue
value, that exactly is correct).

We also have a syntax for colorspaces that define named colors instead
of exposing numeric channels: `color(pantone "101 C")` is how we would
write your example color, assuming we had a Pantone colorspace
builtin.

We'd love to work with you to get a royalty-free reference for the
Pantone color system, suitable for wide implementation in browsers, to
aid in printing and color management for companies using the Pantone
standards. If you can help with that, great! The "royalty-free" part
has been what's blocked us in the past, or else we would have already
added it, given the evident demand. The W3C has strict requirements
on what kinds of things it allows to be standardized.

~TJ
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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Tab Atkins Jr.
On Sat, Jul 23, 2016 at 9:31 AM, Alex Cohen <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It’s great to see so much interest. We love where the color module level 4 is going and think it will bring color to a whole new level on the web.
>
> As a quick note, what I’m about to say is not a promise in any way, shape or form that Pantone will change it’s ways or that it will change it’s product structure, this is just a discussion, for now.
>
> I’d like to address Pantone IP. Pantone has been, to say it lightly, a bully regarding it’s IP. Some consider it non-sensical, other consider it to be the basis of their business model. I consider it to be a bit of both. There is a growing feeling that Pantone needs to loosen their grip.
>
> To me, Pantone is a nomenclature for color ( just like everyone knows what green looks like, a lot of people know what PANTONE 101 C looks like - it’s a yellow ). It is also a business that sells the information on how to reproduce that color. The separation of the two is very important.
>
> We need more than nomenclature to render a color on the web, which is why Pantone might be willing to loosen it’s Terms of use regarding the sRGB data for it’s colors. This is a discussion that we would need to have, but it’s looking good. I think sRGB will do the trick as a first step. We don’t want or expect perfect reproduction on the web, we just want a good approximation.
>
> The real goal is to specify the color using the names, which in a sense, means so much more than the data.
>
> Tab, If Pantone is something the W3C is interested in, I can definitely help out, I want to help out. Anything I can do, I will do.

Yes, we've definitely discussed including Pantone in the past, but
were unable to do anything due to the restrictive licensing. If you
can help with that, Chris Lilley and I would love to discuss further
with you.

Ideally we'd be able to get more than just sRGB, as that's a pretty
restrictive gamut. No reason not to get a proper description of the
color in CIELab if we can!

~TJ

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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Florian Rivoal-4
In reply to this post by Alex Cohen

> On Jul 24, 2016, at 01:31, Alex Cohen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> It’s great to see so much interest. We love where the color module level 4 is going and think it will bring color to a whole new level on the web.

Hi Alex,

I am extremely happy to see Pantone engage us on this topic, and this is a very opportune time since we have been working on colors recently.

> As a quick note, what I’m about to say is not a promise in any way, shape or form that Pantone will change it’s ways or that it will change it’s product structure, this is just a discussion, for now.
>
> I’d like to address Pantone IP. Pantone has been, to say it lightly, a bully regarding it’s IP. Some consider it non-sensical, other consider it to be the basis of their business model. I consider it to be a bit of both. There is a growing feeling that Pantone needs to loosen their grip.
>
> To me, Pantone is a nomenclature for color ( just like everyone knows what green looks like, a lot of people know what PANTONE 101 C looks like - it’s a yellow ). It is also a business that sells the information on how to reproduce that color. The separation of the two is very important.

The way we have designed it now as you can see in the color module level 4 involves two parts:
- the color function, which lets you pick a color either by numeric parameters or by name out of a color profile
- the @color-profile rule, which lets you import color profiles from ICC files.

We designed the color function with named colors in mind, and we certainly considered Pantone while doing that. With the syntax as it is proposed, authors would be able to write:

.logo {
  color: white;
  background: color(pantone '101 CP');
}

Note that the spec does not specifically call out pantone, this is just a normal application of the syntax we defined. "color(my-favorite-colors 'Mapple leaf 7')" is just as valid.

That's for syntax. The remaining question is how the browser gets to know how to match that name with a color definition.

> We need more than nomenclature to render a color on the web, which is why Pantone might be willing to loosen it’s Terms of use regarding the sRGB data for it’s colors. This is a discussion that we would need to have, but it’s looking good. I think sRGB will do the trick as a first step. We don’t want or expect perfect reproduction on the web, we just want a good approximation.
>
> The real goal is to specify the color using the names, which in a sense, means so much more than the data.

Unless someone comes up with something else, how the mapping between the color name and the color definition works boils down to 2 options:

1 - Pantone names *and their corresponding colors definition* are built into browsers. If so, the rule above just works, there's no need to do anything else. There's also no delay caused by having to fetch color definitions over the network, since they're built-in. One things that is important to note here is that this approach pretty much locks down the color definitions: once the web starts depending on certain names looking a certain way, it is very hard to change things.

2 - Authors are required to profile an icc file which defines the colors they want to use. Think of how web fonts work.

@color-profile pantone {
  src: url('http://www.example.com/pantone.icc');
}

@color-profile my-brand-pantone {
  src: url('http://www.example.com/pantone-colors-used-for-my-brand.icc');
}

This has downsides, as there's now more syntax to deal with for authors, and there's a network request in the middle which could slow down things, but it may also be more flexible in terms of providing different profile files to cater for different subsets, different device values...

> Tab, If Pantone is something the W3C is interested in, I can definitely help out, I want to help out. Anything I can do, I will do.


Count me in. We (Vivliostyle) develop a CSS formatter for print, and support for pantone colors would be great.

 - Florian



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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Christoph Päper-2
In reply to this post by Tab Atkins Jr.
Tab Atkins Jr. <[hidden email]>:

>
> We also have a syntax for colorspaces that define named colors instead
> of exposing numeric channels: `color(pantone "101 C")` is how we would
> write your example color, assuming we had a Pantone colorspace
> builtin.
>
> We'd love to work with you to get a royalty-free reference for the
> Pantone color system, suitable for wide implementation in browsers, to
> aid in printing and color management for companies using the Pantone
> standards.  If you can help with that, great! The "royalty-free" part
> has been what's blocked us in the past, or else we would have already
> added it, given the evident demand.  The W3C has strict requirements
> on what kinds of things it allows to be standardized.

Just for the record, other proprietary or industry-standard color naming systems besides Pantone/PMS that have been proposed (more or less seriously) in the past (some as early as 1997) include:

* HKS (spot, tone) <http://www.hks-farben.de/en_us/>
* RAL <http://www.ral-farben.de/content/footer-navigation/footer-anwendungen-hilfe/application-help/ral-colour-names.html>
* CI <http://colour-index.com/technical-info>
* Crayola <http://www.crayola.com/explore-colors.aspx>
* NCS (Natural Color System)
* ISCC–NBS
* CcMmYK
* RYB (red, yellow, blue), subtractive
* TSL (tint, saturation, luminance) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSL_color_space>
* …
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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Tab Atkins Jr.
On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 6:16 AM, Christoph Päper
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Tab Atkins Jr. <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> We also have a syntax for colorspaces that define named colors instead
>> of exposing numeric channels: `color(pantone "101 C")` is how we would
>> write your example color, assuming we had a Pantone colorspace
>> builtin.
>>
>> We'd love to work with you to get a royalty-free reference for the
>> Pantone color system, suitable for wide implementation in browsers, to
>> aid in printing and color management for companies using the Pantone
>> standards.  If you can help with that, great! The "royalty-free" part
>> has been what's blocked us in the past, or else we would have already
>> added it, given the evident demand.  The W3C has strict requirements
>> on what kinds of things it allows to be standardized.
>
> Just for the record, other proprietary or industry-standard color naming systems besides Pantone/PMS that have been proposed (more or less seriously) in the past (some as early as 1997) include:
>
> * HKS (spot, tone) <http://www.hks-farben.de/en_us/>
> * RAL <http://www.ral-farben.de/content/footer-navigation/footer-anwendungen-hilfe/application-help/ral-colour-names.html>
> * CI <http://colour-index.com/technical-info>
> * Crayola <http://www.crayola.com/explore-colors.aspx>
> * NCS (Natural Color System)
> * ISCC–NBS
> * CcMmYK
> * RYB (red, yellow, blue), subtractive
> * TSL (tint, saturation, luminance) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TSL_color_space>
> * …

No one's asked for those in years (and several of them were last
proposed when we were trying to decide on a named color system, so
their usefulness is much lesser now).  I've heard requests for Pantone
during my tenure here, tho.

~TJ

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Re: [css-color] vendor named color enhancement

Christoph Päper-2
Tab Atkins Jr. <[hidden email]>:
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 6:16 AM, Christoph Päper
>>
>> * HKS (…) <http://www.hks-farben.de/en_us/>
>> * RAL <http://www.ral-farben.de/content/footer-navigation/footer-anwendungen-hilfe/application-help/ral-colour-names.html>
>> * …
>
> No one's asked for those in years (…).  I've heard requests for Pantone during my tenure here, tho.

In Germany and other parts of Europe, HKS and RAL are at least as common and important as PMS. Other countries, e.g. Japan and even the US, may have other national or regional industry standards that would be worthy of consideration, too. Some of them might even have fewer IP problems.

RAL Design is almost directly compatible with `lch()` (just in HCL order) and thus can be converted to L*a*b* easily, but the more popular RAL Classic cannot and neither can HKS. There are official software converters for both, though: <http://www.ral-farben.de/en/PRODUCTS-SHOP/RAL-DIGITAL/> and <http://www.hks-farben.de/en_us/products/creative-toool-hks-3000-018/> respectively.