[cors] Web application

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[cors] Web application

Anne van Kesteren-2
Mark,

You said Web application has been traditionally used to refer to server-side applications. Is there any reference for this? It seems more logical to call those Web services to me. Also, the name of this group suggests Web applications is pretty much client-side so I'm thinking of simply removing "client-side" within CORS.

Cheers,


--
Anne van Kesteren
http://annevankesteren.nl/

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RE: [cors] Web application

mikewse
I think this suggestion breaks with well established terms in
web application development. A short (and not very formal)
summary of these terms could be something like:

client-side web application:
- main part of presentation logic running as script in the
  browser
- HTML user interface presented in the browser, usually
  updated incrementally through DOM operations

server-side web application:
- main part of presentation logic written in a server-side
  environment and running on the server
- data rendered to HTML on the server and presented as static
  page in the browser

web service:
- no presentation logic, just serving data
- provides access to data typically through some XML/SOAP
  dialect over HTTP

A client-side web application may very well use web services
for fetching and storing data (and so may a server-side web
application, although from the server and not from the user's
browser).

Best regards
Mike Wilson

Anne van Kesteren wrote:

> Mark,
>
> You said Web application has been traditionally used to refer
> to server-side applications. Is there any reference for this?
> It seems more logical to call those Web services to me. Also,
> the name of this group suggests Web applications is pretty
> much client-side so I'm thinking of simply removing
> "client-side" within CORS.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> --
> Anne van Kesteren
> http://annevankesteren.nl/


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Re: [cors] Web application

Anne van Kesteren-2
In reply to this post by Anne van Kesteren-2
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:54:22 +0200, Mike Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I think this suggestion breaks with well established terms in
> web application development. A short (and not very formal)
> summary of these terms could be something like: [...]

I note you did not define Web application. Wikipedia seems to concur with me by the way (and the name of this WG):

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application


--
Anne van Kesteren
http://annevankesteren.nl/

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RE: [cors] Web application

mikewse
Anne van Kesteren wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 20:54:22 +0200, Mike Wilson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Anne van Kesteren wrote:
> > > You said Web application has been traditionally used to refer
> > > to server-side applications. Is there any reference for this?
> > > It seems more logical to call those Web services to me. Also,
> > > the name of this group suggests Web applications is pretty
> > > much client-side so I'm thinking of simply removing
> > > "client-side" within CORS.
> >
> > I think this suggestion breaks with well established terms in
> > web application development. A short (and not very formal)
> > summary of these terms could be something like: [...]
>
> I note you did not define Web application.

Hm, I thought I did. I defined two types of web applications, client-
side and server-side, both of which are web applications. I would
expect the W3C webapps group to deal with both types, no?

Note that, while the webapps group deals with browser ("client-side")
technologies, these are used by both client-side and server-side
web applications, although to different extents.

> Wikipedia seems to
> concur with me by the way (and the name of this WG):
>
>   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application

No, they actually don't. The article is mainly about server-side
web applications with a few mentions about client-side webapps, not
only about client-side webapps as you indicate.

My other objection was about your suggestion
  "Web application has been traditionally used to refer to server-
  side applications. It seems more logical to call those Web services
  to me.".
Check the wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_service
and you'll see that they agree with my definition and that these are
not server-side web applications.

Lastly, I had a look at the CORS spec and I agree that you should
probably skip the use of "client-side web application". These are
really just statistical measures, f ex current server-side webapps
usually make use of some script for certain tasks, so saying "client-
side" doesn't really define anything.
If you want to make a point of that certain features require script
then it is better to write that - "web applications using script" -
or even "web sites or web applications using script" as CORS doesn't
really limit itself just to webapps.

Best regards
Mike Wilson


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Re: [cors] Web application

Anne van Kesteren-2
In reply to this post by Anne van Kesteren-2
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:54:36 +0200, Mike Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Anne van Kesteren wrote:
>>   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application
>
> No, they actually don't. The article is mainly about server-side
> web applications with a few mentions about client-side webapps, not
> only about client-side webapps as you indicate.

If you call Gmail a server-side Web application then I think using Web application in the draft is fine.

Cheers,


--
Anne van Kesteren
http://annevankesteren.nl/

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RE: [cors] Web application

mikewse
Anne van Kesteren wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:54:36 +0200, Mike Wilson
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Anne van Kesteren wrote:
> >>   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application
> >
> > No, they actually don't. The article is mainly about server-side
> > web applications with a few mentions about client-side webapps, not
> > only about client-side webapps as you indicate.
>
> If you call Gmail a server-side Web application then I think
> using Web application in the draft is fine.

Seriously Anne, I don't know what game you are playing, but I'm
ending this discussion right here. I wish you would accept input
from people more experienced in some fields than yourself, without
resorting to putting words in their mouth, or pretending to
misunderstand.

Mike Wilson


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Re: [cors] Web application

Anne van Kesteren-2
In reply to this post by Anne van Kesteren-2
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 20:39:09 +0200, Mike Wilson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Seriously Anne, I don't know what game you are playing, but I'm
> ending this discussion right here. I wish you would accept input
> from people more experienced in some fields than yourself, without
> resorting to putting words in their mouth, or pretending to
> misunderstand.

I really don't understand what you mean. According to the Wikipedia article Web application is used to refer to applications on the Web that use JavaScript etc. The sidebar mentions Google Calendar, the history section mentions Gmail. This all seems pretty consistent with the usage of "client-side Web application" in the CORS draft. What am I missing?


--
Anne van Kesteren
http://annevankesteren.nl/

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Re: [cors] Web application

Mark Nottingham-4
In reply to this post by Anne van Kesteren-2
Anne,

Might I suggest that it seems more logical because you work for a  
browser vendor, and are steeped in the client-side application world?

A "Web service" means many different things to many different people  
(SOAP, WSDL, REST, etc.) and generally refers to an exposed API, not a  
web application.

As far examples:
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application_framework
   http://www.scripting.com/davenet/2000/03/12/ 
whatIsAWebApplication.html
   http://www.webappsec.org/
   http://java.sun.com/javaee/technologies/webapps/

... and that's just from the first page of search results.

Note that I'm not disputing that what's in-scope here *could* be  
called a Web Application -- just that it's a very broad and muddy term  
that may mislead people who come at this document from a different  
angle.

Anyway, it was just a suggestion, not a big deal.

Cheers,



On 16/06/2009, at 3:05 AM, Anne van Kesteren wrote:

> Mark,
>
> You said Web application has been traditionally used to refer to  
> server-side applications. Is there any reference for this? It seems  
> more logical to call those Web services to me. Also, the name of  
> this group suggests Web applications is pretty much client-side so  
> I'm thinking of simply removing "client-side" within CORS.
>
> Cheers,
>
>
> --
> Anne van Kesteren
> http://annevankesteren.nl/

--
Mark Nottingham       [hidden email]



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Re: [cors] Web application

Anne van Kesteren-2
On Wed, 17 Jun 2009 08:51:00 +0200, Mark Nottingham <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Might I suggest that it seems more logical because you work for a  
> browser vendor, and are steeped in the client-side application world?
>
> A "Web service" means many different things to many different people  
> (SOAP, WSDL, REST, etc.) and generally refers to an exposed API, not a  
> web application.
>
> As far examples:
>    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_application_framework
>    http://www.scripting.com/davenet/2000/03/12/whatIsAWebApplication.html
>    http://www.webappsec.org/
>    http://java.sun.com/javaee/technologies/webapps/
>
> ... and that's just from the first page of search results.
>
> Note that I'm not disputing that what's in-scope here *could* be called  
> a Web Application -- just that it's a very broad and muddy term that may  
> mislead people who come at this document from a different angle.
>
> Anyway, it was just a suggestion, not a big deal.

Leaving it the same is no problem either.

I realize a Web service is just an API on the server, but it seemed to me that any kind of other Web application would have some kind of UI part rendered in a Web browser. But yeah, given that this specification deals with requests I can see how it might be confusing if you don't know about e.g. XMLHttpRequest.


--
Anne van Kesteren
http://annevankesteren.nl/