The HTML Author View

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The HTML Author View

Shelley Powers
The document currently up for CfC at
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ has a silly lang attribute value.

Seriously?

I would almost think that whoever designed the page structure is mocking
the W3C and the HTML WG.

Shelley


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Re: The HTML Author View

Jukka K. Korpela-2
9.6.2011 19:40, Shelley Powers write:

> The document currently up for CfC at
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ has a silly lang attribute value.
>
> Seriously?
>
> I would almost think that whoever designed the page structure is mocking
> the W3C and the HTML WG.

I’m sure Hixie wrote lang="en-US-x-Hixie" intentionally and very
seriously. After all, it may well be relevant to know that the content
language of a document is not just US English in general but some
particular idiolect. This may help in interpreting otherwise obscure
statements or in realizing that apparently clear statements might really
be obscure.

The real value of such lang attributes is questionably, though. Some
older versions of Firefox let the user right-click on an element and see
a prose description of it, including its (declared) language, but that
feature seems to have gone. Nowadays you need to be more or less a
developer using developer tools to inspect the declared language. But
specs are written mainly for developers, aren't they?

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

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Re: The HTML Author View

Julian Reschke
In reply to this post by Shelley Powers
On 2011-06-09 18:40, Shelley Powers wrote:

> The document currently up for CfC at
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ has a silly lang attribute value.
>
> Seriously?
>
> I would almost think that whoever designed the page structure is mocking
> the W3C and the HTML WG.
>
> Shelley
> ...

...so does the HTML5 spec, in Last Call.

Best regards, Julian

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Re: The HTML Author View

Ian Devlin
As a newbie to this list I hesitate to respond but I shall.

I would hope that it was initially entered in jest and the intention was to change it, however as a serious document, which it is, that had been put forward for review, it should be correct.

On 9 June 2011 18:17, Julian Reschke <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 2011-06-09 18:40, Shelley Powers wrote:
The document currently up for CfC at
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ has a silly lang attribute value..

Seriously?

I would almost think that whoever designed the page structure is mocking
the W3C and the HTML WG.

Shelley
....

....so does the HTML5 spec, in Last Call.

Best regards, Julian





--
ian devlin
w: www.iandevlin.com
e: [hidden email]
t: iandevlin
skype: idevlin

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Re: The HTML Author View

Laura Carlson-2
In reply to this post by Shelley Powers
Hi Shelley,

> The document currently up for CfC at
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ has a silly lang attribute value.
>
> Seriously?
>
> I would almost think that whoever designed the page structure is mocking
> the W3C and the HTML WG.

Gregory file a related bug last year:
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10661

Best Regards,
Laura

--
Laura L. Carlson


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Re: The HTML Author View

Jens Oliver Meiert
In reply to this post by Shelley Powers
> The document currently up for CfC at
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ has a silly lang attribute value.

I’m sure it would be funny if it carried a different name.

--
Jens O. Meiert
http://meiert.com/en/

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Re: The HTML Author View

Steve Faulkner
In reply to this post by Shelley Powers
Hi Jens,
 
>> The document currently up for CfC at
>> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ has a silly lang attribute value.
 
>I’m sure it would be funny if it carried a different name.

 

We can test that theory

 

http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-api-map/overview.html

 

lang="en-x-not-hixie"

 

with regards

Steve Faulkner

 

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Re: The HTML Author View

cameronjones
<base href="x-msg://26/">For a standards committee, it's funny no-one can even agree on the english language :)

cam

On 10/06/2011, at 1:39 PM, Steve Faulkner wrote:

Hi Jens,
 
>> The document currently up for CfC at
>> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec-author-view/ has a silly lang attribute value.
 
>I’m sure it would be funny if it carried a different name.
 
We can test that theory
 
 
lang="en-x-not-hixie"
 
with regards

Steve Faulkner

 

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Re: The HTML Author View

Jukka K. Korpela-2
10.6.2011 15:53, Cameron Heavon-Jones wrote:

> For a standards committee, it's funny no-one can even agree on the
> english language :)

The W3C or its working groups are not standards committees, no matter
how much they might present themselves that way. There is actually a
standard on HTML (ISO HTML), but few people know about it and even fewer
care about it; it's an uninteresting minor modification of HTML 4.

Non-funnily, standards committees often agree on the (English) language
to a surprising degree. They have their own rules for things and
notations, sometimes deviating from everyone else's English.

--
Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/

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Re: The HTML Author View

cameronjones
Apologies for my misuse\misunderstand of the appropriate terms.

I'm not sure if i agree (or possible understand again) what you mean by deviating english? If there are rules or notations, they don't create a new form of english, they just restrict the context of the implied meaning of the words.

To bring it back to the current case, i'm not sure that it is appropriate to specify a language extension for the document. This would imply that there MAY be new words, spellings or meanings in the resulting text and that just isn't the case. There is also no registration of the language extension and hence no way for someone to lookup any potential deviations.

Additionally, i don't think a specification, especially one targeted at a global audience, meant for translation and to stand as a pillar in time, should have any individual 'personality', especially as personality is culturally constrained and temporal in nature.

I don't take this too seriously, but then again it doesn't really scream 'professionalism' to me....

thanks,
cameron jones

On 10/06/2011, at 2:22 PM, Jukka K. Korpela wrote:

> 10.6.2011 15:53, Cameron Heavon-Jones wrote:
>
>> For a standards committee, it's funny no-one can even agree on the
>> english language :)
>
> The W3C or its working groups are not standards committees, no matter how much they might present themselves that way. There is actually a standard on HTML (ISO HTML), but few people know about it and even fewer care about it; it's an uninteresting minor modification of HTML 4.
>
> Non-funnily, standards committees often agree on the (English) language to a surprising degree. They have their own rules for things and notations, sometimes deviating from everyone else's English.
>
> --
> Yucca, http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/
>


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Re: The HTML Author View

Chris-491
On Jun 10, 2011, at 9:46 AM, Cameron Heavon-Jones <[hidden email]> wrote:

> To bring it back to the current case, i'm not sure that it is appropriate to specify a language extension for the document. This would imply that there MAY be new words, spellings or meanings in the resulting text and that just isn't the case.

Private use tags do indeed imply that there may be differences in language and style, but because the tags are private, the differences are _only_ meaningful to the people who have agreed on their use -- in this case, the W3C authors. For everyone outside that agreement, the tags provide no meaningful new information.

One might well wonder _why_ the W3C would want to distinguish documents written in Ian Hickson's inimitable style from others (phrases like "coming apocalypse" and "robot war" jump to mind for some reason), but the reasons are by definition unimportant, at least to us mere mortals.

For what it's worth, I think the private use tag provides a rather clever test for user agent conformance. UAs should treat en-US-x-anything _exactly_ like en-US. There are enough browsers out there that seem to want to conform only if and when they want to (I'm looking at you, Microsoft, Freedom Scientific and tattooed teenagers) that such a test is well worthwhile.

Chris
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Re: The HTML Author View

Shelley Powers
In reply to this post by Shelley Powers
The specification is not on of the test cases. Perhaps Ian can use his
creativity in a test case, instead of the formal HTML5 documentation.

Shelley