Text issues for Sydney F2F

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Text issues for Sydney F2F

Tavmjong Bah-2

Hi,

I've written up most of my text issues for the Sydney meeting. Please
have a look at:

        http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/TEXT_SYDNEY_2016/

Thanks,

Tav




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RE: Text issues for Sydney F2F

David Dailey

-----Original Message-----
From: Tavmjong Bah
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 3:33 PM

I've written up most of my text issues for the Sydney meeting. Please have a look at:

        http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/TEXT_SYDNEY_2016/

---------

Hey Tav,

Looks good. I would agree that " Stand-alone SVG renderers should not need to deal with this extra level of complexity. " SVG should not be made any more dependent than it is on having a full-fledged browser running since that is not the only environment in which it is used, authored, displayed, etc. Perhaps opinions of users are of increasingly less interest to the working group, since nowadays we hear that implementation (as driven by browsers) drives new features rather than interest, use cases, or principles of good architecture (whatever those might be).

However, I don't see among your examples, stuff dealing with aligning text to alternative or dual baselines, as discussed at say here [1]

Regards
David

[1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0007.html





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Re: Text issues for Sydney F2F

Tavmjong Bah-2
On Thu, 2016-01-28 at 17:14 -0500, David Dailey wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tavmjong Bah 
> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 3:33 PM
>
> I've written up most of my text issues for the Sydney meeting. Please
> have a look at:
>
> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/TEXT_SYDNEY_2016/
>
> ---------
>
> Hey Tav,
>
> Looks good. I would agree that " Stand-alone SVG renderers should not
> need to deal with this extra level of complexity. " SVG should not be
> made any more dependent than it is on having a full-fledged browser
> running since that is not the only environment in which it is used,
> authored, displayed, etc. Perhaps opinions of users are of
> increasingly less interest to the working group, since nowadays we
> hear that implementation (as driven by browsers) drives new features
> rather than interest, use cases, or principles of good architecture
> (whatever those might be).
>
> However, I don't see among your examples, stuff dealing with aligning
> text to alternative or dual baselines, as discussed at say here [1]

I think there is definitely interest within the group for this but we
have limited resources and needed to make a hard cut on what is going
to be in SVG 2 or it would never get out.

> Regards
> David
>
> [1] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2014Sep/0007.html
>
>
>
>

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Re: Text issues for Sydney F2F

Sebastian Zartner-3
On 29 January 2016 at 09:46, Tavmjong Bah <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, 2016-01-28 at 17:14 -0500, David Dailey wrote:
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Tavmjong Bah
>> Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 3:33 PM
>>
>> I've written up most of my text issues for the Sydney meeting. Please
>> have a look at:
>>
>>       http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/TEXT_SYDNEY_2016/
>>
>> ---------
>>
>> Hey Tav,
>>
>> Looks good. I would agree that " Stand-alone SVG renderers should not
>> need to deal with this extra level of complexity. " SVG should not be
>> made any more dependent than it is on having a full-fledged browser
>> running since that is not the only environment in which it is used,
>> authored, displayed, etc. Perhaps opinions of users are of
>> increasingly less interest to the working group, since nowadays we
>> hear that implementation (as driven by browsers) drives new features
>> rather than interest, use cases, or principles of good architecture
>> (whatever those might be).
>>
>> However, I don't see among your examples, stuff dealing with aligning
>> text to alternative or dual baselines, as discussed at say here [1]
>
> I think there is definitely interest within the group for this but we
> have limited resources and needed to make a hard cut on what is going
> to be in SVG 2 or it would never get out.

To 1:
I agree with SVG Text uses CSS, SVG Text is not CSS text. Having said
that, SVG Text should be based on CSS Modules were applicable and only
outline any differences. That makes it easier for spec. authors like
you, Tav, as they have to write less, and it makes it easier for web
authors/users, because the differences between both will be minimized,
i.e. the "why does this behave different in SVG than in CSS" effect
will be reduced.

To 3.1:
I favor Chrome's behavior ignoring any line grid. This allows to use
the available space optimally. If predictability of where the first
line is placed is wished (e.g. to allow aligning text inside a shape
vertically with one outside of it), I suggest to introduce a CSS
property to control that.
In any case, the behavior must be specified to avoid having different
results in different UAs.

To 3.2:
I'm in favor of solution 2 with the constraint that it should be
controllable whether to clip the text, show an ellipse or display it
outside the shape. Though solution 3 proposed by CSS Shapes 2 sounds
bad to me (at least if that was the default), as the text outside the
shape may overlap other contents.
Note that CSS Shapes 2 doesn't currently define where the overflowing
text is placed exactly. This may not necessarily be below the
rectangular bounds but could also be above or besides the element.

To 3.3:
'wrap-flow' should get a new value specifying that the text can be
split into parts in those cases.

To 3.4:
Yes, CSS Regions seems to be the right place, maybe in combination
with CSS Shapes. Though to work in SVG it looks like CSS Regions needs
some work in regard of how named flows are created.

Greetings,

Sebastian

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Re: Text issues for Sydney F2F

Tavmjong Bah-2
On Fri, 2016-01-29 at 12:14 +0100, Sebastian Zartner wrote:

> On 29 January 2016 at 09:46, Tavmjong Bah <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Thu, 2016-01-28 at 17:14 -0500, David Dailey wrote:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Tavmjong Bah
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 3:33 PM
> > >
> > > I've written up most of my text issues for the Sydney meeting.
> > > Please
> > > have a look at:
> > >
> > >       http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/TEXT_SYDNEY_2016/
> > >
> > >

> To 1:
> I agree with SVG Text uses CSS, SVG Text is not CSS text. Having said
> that, SVG Text should be based on CSS Modules were applicable and
> only
> outline any differences. That makes it easier for spec. authors like
> you, Tav, as they have to write less, and it makes it easier for web
> authors/users, because the differences between both will be
> minimized,
> i.e. the "why does this behave different in SVG than in CSS" effect
> will be reduced.

That has been our goal.

> To 3.1:
> I favor Chrome's behavior ignoring any line grid. This allows to use
> the available space optimally. If predictability of where the first
> line is placed is wished (e.g. to allow aligning text inside a shape
> vertically with one outside of it), I suggest to introduce a CSS
> property to control that.

It might also be useful to not have the line shift down as characters
are added (like in typing).

> In any case, the behavior must be specified to avoid having different
> results in different UAs.

Agreed.

> To 3.2:
> I'm in favor of solution 2 with the constraint that it should be
> controllable whether to clip the text, show an ellipse or display it
> outside the shape. Though solution 3 proposed by CSS Shapes 2 sounds
> bad to me (at least if that was the default), as the text outside the
> shape may overlap other contents.
> Note that CSS Shapes 2 doesn't currently define where the overflowing
> text is placed exactly. This may not necessarily be below the
> rectangular bounds but could also be above or besides the element.

I agree that the author needs control and placing it underneath is not
a good default option.

> To 3.3:
> 'wrap-flow' should get a new value specifying that the text can be
> split into parts in those cases.

Sounds reasonable.

> To 3.4:
> Yes, CSS Regions seems to be the right place, maybe in combination
> with CSS Shapes. Though to work in SVG it looks like CSS Regions
> needs
> some work in regard of how named flows are created.

That was my conclusion. I couldn't see how to mock up a test case.

Thanks for your feedback.

Tav

> Greetings,
>
> Sebastian

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Re: Text issues for Sydney F2F

Paul LeBeau
I can't help thinking that designers would want some control over where the baselines of flowed text is placed.  Particularly in the case where text overflows to other shapes.

It's fairly important, for aesthetic reasons, that baseline spacing is regular. It may not always be possible to design and position shapes in the exact place they need to be for baselines (of multiple shapes) to align.

Paul


On 30 January 2016 at 01:31, Tavmjong Bah <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 2016-01-29 at 12:14 +0100, Sebastian Zartner wrote:
> On 29 January 2016 at 09:46, Tavmjong Bah <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Thu, 2016-01-28 at 17:14 -0500, David Dailey wrote:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Tavmjong Bah
> > > Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2016 3:33 PM
> > >
> > > I've written up most of my text issues for the Sydney meeting.
> > > Please
> > > have a look at:
> > >
> > >       http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/TEXT_SYDNEY_2016/
> > >
> > >

> To 1:
> I agree with SVG Text uses CSS, SVG Text is not CSS text. Having said
> that, SVG Text should be based on CSS Modules were applicable and
> only
> outline any differences. That makes it easier for spec. authors like
> you, Tav, as they have to write less, and it makes it easier for web
> authors/users, because the differences between both will be
> minimized,
> i.e. the "why does this behave different in SVG than in CSS" effect
> will be reduced.

That has been our goal.

> To 3.1:
> I favor Chrome's behavior ignoring any line grid. This allows to use
> the available space optimally. If predictability of where the first
> line is placed is wished (e.g. to allow aligning text inside a shape
> vertically with one outside of it), I suggest to introduce a CSS
> property to control that.

It might also be useful to not have the line shift down as characters
are added (like in typing).

> In any case, the behavior must be specified to avoid having different
> results in different UAs.

Agreed.

> To 3.2:
> I'm in favor of solution 2 with the constraint that it should be
> controllable whether to clip the text, show an ellipse or display it
> outside the shape. Though solution 3 proposed by CSS Shapes 2 sounds
> bad to me (at least if that was the default), as the text outside the
> shape may overlap other contents.
> Note that CSS Shapes 2 doesn't currently define where the overflowing
> text is placed exactly. This may not necessarily be below the
> rectangular bounds but could also be above or besides the element.

I agree that the author needs control and placing it underneath is not
a good default option.

> To 3.3:
> 'wrap-flow' should get a new value specifying that the text can be
> split into parts in those cases.

Sounds reasonable.

> To 3.4:
> Yes, CSS Regions seems to be the right place, maybe in combination
> with CSS Shapes. Though to work in SVG it looks like CSS Regions
> needs
> some work in regard of how named flows are created.

That was my conclusion. I couldn't see how to mock up a test case.

Thanks for your feedback.

Tav

> Greetings,
>
> Sebastian


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Re: Text issues for Sydney F2F

Sebastian Zartner-3
In reply to this post by Tavmjong Bah-2
Thanks for getting back at me that fast!

On 29 January 2016 at 13:31, Tavmjong Bah <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, 2016-01-29 at 12:14 +0100, Sebastian Zartner wrote:
>> On 29 January 2016 at 09:46, Tavmjong Bah <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> To 3.1:
>> I favor Chrome's behavior ignoring any line grid. This allows to use
>> the available space optimally. If predictability of where the first
>> line is placed is wished (e.g. to allow aligning text inside a shape
>> vertically with one outside of it), I suggest to introduce a CSS
>> property to control that.
>
> It might also be useful to not have the line shift down as characters
> are added (like in typing).

I see that less of a problem. Though of course that will also happen
when using half the line-height, just not that frequently.

>> To 3.4:
>> Yes, CSS Regions seems to be the right place, maybe in combination
>> with CSS Shapes. Though to work in SVG it looks like CSS Regions
>> needs
>> some work in regard of how named flows are created.
>
> That was my conclusion. I couldn't see how to mock up a test case.

Maybe I can come up with one if I have a bit spare time.

Sebastian