Status and links to Part 3

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Status and links to Part 3

David Orchard

I've updated soap12 part3 [1] - first described at [2] - and checked the files into cvs.  I did one small editorial change as suggested by NM, which was to move the abnormal operation material a little lower.  I think a bit more wordsmithing is in order for that section as it now seems to read a bit redundant to me.

 

David Hull had a large number of substantial comments, suggestions, and rewrites such as [3], [4].  However, it's not clear to me if these are still held to or not.

 

From an editorial perspective, I think we are up to date on the drafts.  My work here is done.  The WG can always instruct me to make subsequent changes to the docs.

 

Cheers,

Dave

 

[1] http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/6/soap12-part3

[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2006Jun/0000.html

[3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2006Apr/0020.html

[4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2006Jun/0004.html

 

Ps. This is my 5th set of activity in w3c cvs this week.  Previous items: TAG versioning finding, TAG minutes, ws-policy edits, xml schema 1.1 versioning guide.  When it rains, it pours!

 

 

 

 

 

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Re: Status and links to Part 3

noah_mendelsohn

Dave Orchard writes:

> I did one small editorial change as suggested by NM,

Looks good, thanks!

> I think a bit more wordsmithing is in order for that section as it now
seems to read a bit redundant to me.
 

FWIW, I'm OK with it as is.

Found a few other minor things:

* Typo:  descovers -> discovers

* Column widths in tables in 2.3 don't look so good in Firefox.  Speaking
as an experienced editor to a somewhat less experienced editor, you can
look forward to hours of fun trying to do tables in a way that look
reasonable in most browsers, and that don't clip when printed from those
browsers.

* Editorial: suggest first paras of 2.2 be made into one.  I think the
thoughs go together, and it's less visually choppy that way.  Not
important obviously.

Overall, I need to revisit some of David Hull's concerns, but pending that
this still looks pretty good to me.  I think the swap of the abnormal
stuff is an improvement.  Much appreciated.  Thanks!

Noah

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------








"David Orchard" <[hidden email]>
Sent by: [hidden email]
07/20/2006 04:00 PM
 
        To:     <[hidden email]>
        cc:     (bcc: Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM)
        Subject:        Status and links to Part 3


I've updated soap12 part3 [1] - first described at [2] - and checked the
files into cvs.  I did one small editorial change as suggested by NM,
which was to move the abnormal operation material a little lower.  I think
a bit more wordsmithing is in order for that section as it now seems to
read a bit redundant to me.
 
David Hull had a large number of substantial comments, suggestions, and
rewrites such as [3], [4].  However, it's not clear to me if these are
still held to or not.
 
>From an editorial perspective, I think we are up to date on the drafts. My
work here is done.  The WG can always instruct me to make subsequent
changes to the docs.
 
Cheers,
Dave
 
[1] http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/6/soap12-part3
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2006Jun/0000.html
[3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2006Apr/0020.html
[4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2006Jun/0004.html
 
Ps. This is my 5th set of activity in w3c cvs this week.  Previous items:
TAG versioning finding, TAG minutes, ws-policy edits, xml schema 1.1
versioning guide.  When it rains, it pours!
 
 
 
 
 


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Re: Status and links to Part 3

David Hull
In reply to this post by David Orchard
Looks like we're back on track and ready to roll.  Thanks, Dave.

I'm perfectly happy with the [1] and [2] being the base version.  The rewrites [3] and [4] exist in the interest of putting forth definite text to discuss.  I would say that [3] is pretty much obsoleted by [4], but that the comments that led to [3] are still valid (if a bit sharply worded at times).

As usual, I'm much more concerned about simple and pertinent questions having crisp answers than exactly how we phrase or format those answers.  In that vein, I'm not at all satisfied we have crisp answers yet (i.e., in the current base), but I'm confident that we can get there reasonably quickly.

David Orchard wrote:

I've updated soap12 part3 [1] - first described at [2] - and checked the files into cvs.  I did one small editorial change as suggested by NM, which was to move the abnormal operation material a little lower.  I think a bit more wordsmithing is in order for that section as it now seems to read a bit redundant to me.

 

David Hull had a large number of substantial comments, suggestions, and rewrites such as [3], [4].  However, it's not clear to me if these are still held to or not.

 

From an editorial perspective, I think we are up to date on the drafts.  My work here is done.  The WG can always instruct me to make subsequent changes to the docs.

 

Cheers,

Dave

 

[1] http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/6/soap12-part3

[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2006Jun/0000.html

[3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2006Apr/0020.html

[4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2006Jun/0004.html

 

Ps. This is my 5th set of activity in w3c cvs this week.  Previous items: TAG versioning finding, TAG minutes, ws-policy edits, xml schema 1.1 versioning guide.  When it rains, it pours!

 

 

 

 

 


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RE: Status and links to Part 3

David Orchard
In reply to this post by noah_mendelsohn

In the next rev, I've done the 1st and 3rd bullets.  

But I don't see the problem in firefox that you do.  I've tried with
firefox 1.5.0.1 and 1.5.0.2 on Win XP and 1.5.0.4 Server 2003.  My view
is that the breaks should only be on whitespace.  The property URIs are
never broken, just the text in the description.  I did see that the Part
2 Rec has a weird line break in firefox on the description of MEP name.
Perhaps a screen shot or refined description might help me?

Cheers,
Dave

PS. Did you check your 2006/02/13 update to xmlspec.xsl into the
mainline or is it a TAG specific version?  I'm getting bibl formatting
that I'm not liking - title hyperlinked followed by (see xyz) where xyz
isn't hyperlinked.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, July 20, 2006 1:35 PM
> To: David Orchard
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Status and links to Part 3
>
> Dave Orchard writes:
>
> > I did one small editorial change as suggested by NM,
>
> Looks good, thanks!
>
> > I think a bit more wordsmithing is in order for that section as it
now

> seems to read a bit redundant to me.
>
>
> FWIW, I'm OK with it as is.
>
> Found a few other minor things:
>
> * Typo:  descovers -> discovers
>
> * Column widths in tables in 2.3 don't look so good in Firefox.
Speaking
> as an experienced editor to a somewhat less experienced editor, you
can
> look forward to hours of fun trying to do tables in a way that look
> reasonable in most browsers, and that don't clip when printed from
those
> browsers.
>
> * Editorial: suggest first paras of 2.2 be made into one.  I think the
> thoughs go together, and it's less visually choppy that way.  Not
> important obviously.
>
> Overall, I need to revisit some of David Hull's concerns, but pending
that

> this still looks pretty good to me.  I think the swap of the abnormal
> stuff is an improvement.  Much appreciated.  Thanks!
>
> Noah
>
> --------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn
> IBM Corporation
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> 1-617-693-4036
> --------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "David Orchard" <[hidden email]>
> Sent by: [hidden email]
> 07/20/2006 04:00 PM
>
>         To:     <[hidden email]>
>         cc:     (bcc: Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM)
>         Subject:        Status and links to Part 3
>
>
> I've updated soap12 part3 [1] - first described at [2] - and checked
the
> files into cvs.  I did one small editorial change as suggested by NM,
> which was to move the abnormal operation material a little lower.  I
think
> a bit more wordsmithing is in order for that section as it now seems
to
> read a bit redundant to me.
>
> David Hull had a large number of substantial comments, suggestions,
and
> rewrites such as [3], [4].  However, it's not clear to me if these are
> still held to or not.
>
> From an editorial perspective, I think we are up to date on the
drafts. My

> work here is done.  The WG can always instruct me to make subsequent
> changes to the docs.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/2000/xp/Group/6/soap12-part3
> [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2006Jun/0000.html
> [3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2006Apr/0020.html
> [4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/xml-dist-app/2006Jun/0004.html
>
> Ps. This is my 5th set of activity in w3c cvs this week.  Previous
items:
> TAG versioning finding, TAG minutes, ws-policy edits, xml schema 1.1
> versioning guide.  When it rains, it pours!
>
>
>
>
>


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RE: Status and links to Part 3

noah_mendelsohn
David Orchard writes:

> But I don't see the problem in firefox that you do.  I've tried with
> firefox 1.5.0.1 and 1.5.0.2 on Win XP and 1.5.0.4 Server 2003.  My view
> is that the breaks should only be on whitespace.  The property URIs are
> never broken, just the text in the description.  I did see that the Part
> 2 Rec has a weird line break in firefox on the description of MEP name.

In my browser, which is Firefox 1.5.0.5 I get a very wide column for the
URIs, a very narrow one for description, and most of the rest off screen.  
In the interest of full disclosure, my default fonts are a bit larger than
some people's.  To help you work around that, I made a separate screen
capture with my default font size turned down.

In some ways the worst problem, as usual, is with printing.  A screen shot
of a Print Preview is also attached.

> Perhaps a screen shot or refined description might help me?

Sure.  See attached GIFs.  Here's the map of filenames:

columnwidthproblems.gif:
the way it looks with my default font settings.

FireFoxFontSettings.gif:
the dialog box that shows those font settings, in case you want to try
them.  Note that my main default font size is set to 20.

columnwidthproblemswithTimesNewRoman12Pitch.gif: here's what it looks like
if I set my main default font size down to 12

FireFoxPrintPreview.gif:  Here's what you get if you do a Firefox Print
Preview, which usually is a pretty good hint as to how it all will look
printed.  When I've done the specs, this is what took the most time.

As to how to fix all of this:  I found when I wrote specs that I had to
play around with relative font sizes for URIs in the table.  Sometimes it
seems worthwhile to make the URI font sizes a bit smaller.  Also, it looks
like even given the fonts chosen, the column widths for the URIs are wider
than necessary.  You might want to look at some of the tables in the
published SOAP Recs.  They took quite a bit of fooling around to get a
plausible compromise, especially for printing.  Of course, it's also worth
checking all this stuff in other browsers.

Hope this is what you need.  Enjoy!

Noah




--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------




columnwidthproblems.gif (43K) Download Attachment
FirefoxFontSettings.gif (13K) Download Attachment
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RE: Status and links to Part 3

noah_mendelsohn
In reply to this post by David Orchard

Following up on my own note, it occurs to me that you might want to make
the compromise of splitting some of the URIs with a line break after one
of the "/".  I hadn't noticed that one reason for the unduly wide column
was that some of the URIS are exceptionally long.  I suppose one could
also try to not restate the common: http://www.w3.org/2003/05/soap , but I
suppose it would be hard to do that cleanly.  One way or the other, I
think the table will look pretty bad unless you find a way to narrow the
URI column some.  Just my opinion.

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------





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RE: Status and links to Part 3

Christopher B Ferris

One way to treat this would be to specify above the table that all of the property URIs begin with
http://www.w3.org/2003/05/soap/, and that the URIs in the table are relative to that base URI.

Just a thought.

Cheers,

Christopher Ferris
STSM, Software Group Standards Strategy
email: [hidden email]
blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/dw_blog.jspa?blog=440
phone: +1 508 377 9295


[hidden email] wrote on 08/04/2006 10:34:41 AM:

>
> Following up on my own note, it occurs to me that you might want to make
> the compromise of splitting some of the URIs with a line break after one
> of the "/".  I hadn't noticed that one reason for the unduly wide column
> was that some of the URIS are exceptionally long.  I suppose one could
> also try to not restate the common: http://www.w3.org/2003/05/soap , but I
> suppose it would be hard to do that cleanly.  One way or the other, I
> think the table will look pretty bad unless you find a way to narrow the
> URI column some.  Just my opinion.
>
> --------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn
> IBM Corporation
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> 1-617-693-4036
> --------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
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RE: Status and links to Part 3

David Orchard
In reply to this post by noah_mendelsohn

The table seems better with the FailureReason property removed.  Let me
know if you think this is still a problem.

Cheers,
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:35 AM
> To: David Orchard
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: Status and links to Part 3
>
> Following up on my own note, it occurs to me that you might want to
make
> the compromise of splitting some of the URIs with a line break after
one
> of the "/".  I hadn't noticed that one reason for the unduly wide
column
> was that some of the URIS are exceptionally long.  I suppose one could
> also try to not restate the common: http://www.w3.org/2003/05/soap ,
but I
> suppose it would be hard to do that cleanly.  One way or the other, I
> think the table will look pretty bad unless you find a way to narrow
the

> URI column some.  Just my opinion.
>
> --------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn
> IBM Corporation
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> 1-617-693-4036
> --------------------------------------
>
>
>


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RE: Status and links to Part 3

noah_mendelsohn

Certainly looks better.  I think it's OK functionally too, but we should
check whether anyone was particularly anxious to have it there.  I don't
remember how it got there in the first place.   So, fine with me of nobody
else objects.  The print preview in Firefox is still dog-ugly, but at
least it doesn't spill off the page, and all the information is now there.
 So, I think I'd leave it.  All set.  Thanks.

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------








"David Orchard" <[hidden email]>
08/09/2006 04:28 PM
 
        To:     <[hidden email]>
        cc:     <[hidden email]>
        Subject:        RE: Status and links to Part 3


The table seems better with the FailureReason property removed.  Let me
know if you think this is still a problem.

Cheers,
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Friday, August 04, 2006 7:35 AM
> To: David Orchard
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: Status and links to Part 3
>
> Following up on my own note, it occurs to me that you might want to
make
> the compromise of splitting some of the URIs with a line break after
one
> of the "/".  I hadn't noticed that one reason for the unduly wide
column
> was that some of the URIS are exceptionally long.  I suppose one could
> also try to not restate the common: http://www.w3.org/2003/05/soap ,
but I
> suppose it would be hard to do that cleanly.  One way or the other, I
> think the table will look pretty bad unless you find a way to narrow
the

> URI column some.  Just my opinion.
>
> --------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn
> IBM Corporation
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> 1-617-693-4036
> --------------------------------------
>
>
>