Opinions on accessible time formatting

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Opinions on accessible time formatting

Andy Keyworth
Hi,

I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be
accessibly formatted on web pages.

For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally) acceptable,
or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between letters) be
preferable? Is another format better?

Thank you,

Andy Keyworth
Senior Web Accessibility Specialist
T-Base Communications
Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256
www.tbase.com | Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON
ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL FORMATS.TM

This email may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If
you have received this communication in error, please delete this email
message immediately.




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Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Chaals McCathie Nevile
OK, I'll bite

04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:
> Hi,
>
> I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be
> accessibly formatted on web pages.
>
> For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally) acceptable,
> or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between letters) be
> preferable? Is another format better?

As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.

(Note that date formats are different. You do a lot better for most people using DD Month YYYY, e.g. 12 November 2014 than any shorthand. But I doubt that is news).

cheers

>
> Thank you,
>
> Andy Keyworth
> Senior Web Accessibility Specialist
> T-Base Communications
> Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256
> www.tbase.com | Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON
> ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL FORMATS.TM
>
> This email may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If
> you have received this communication in error, please delete this email
> message immediately.

--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
[hidden email] - - - Find more at http://yandex.com

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RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Mattes, Kurt X1
Agree with Chaals and only add that consistency in the way it is presented is an important part of comprehending any information that is commonly presented in various ways.

Thanks,
Kurt Mattes
VP - Electronic Communications Accessibility Team | JPMorgan Chase & Company


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 7:00 AM
To: Andy Keyworth; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

OK, I'll bite

04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:
> Hi,
>
> I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be
> accessibly formatted on web pages.
>
> For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally)
> acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between
> letters) be preferable? Is another format better?

As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.

(Note that date formats are different. You do a lot better for most people using DD Month YYYY, e.g. 12 November 2014 than any shorthand. But I doubt that is news).

cheers

>
> Thank you,
>
> Andy Keyworth
> Senior Web Accessibility Specialist
> T-Base Communications
> Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256 www.tbase.com |
> Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL
> FORMATS.TM
>
> This email may contain information that is privileged and
> confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please
> delete this email message immediately.

--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex [hidden email] - - - Find more at http://yandex.com


This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential, legally privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.  If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  Although this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by JPMorgan Chase & Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates, as applicable, for any loss or damage arising in any way from its use.  If you received this transmission in error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you.

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RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Andy Keyworth
Thank you, everyone, for your feedback.

Andy Keyworth
Senior Web Accessibility Specialist
T-Base Communications
Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256
www.tbase.com | Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON
ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL FORMATS.TM

This email may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If
you have received this communication in error, please delete this email
message immediately.


-----Original Message-----
From: Mattes, Kurt X1 [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: November-07-14 9:50 AM
To: [hidden email]; Andy Keyworth; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Agree with Chaals and only add that consistency in the way it is presented
is an important part of comprehending any information that is commonly
presented in various ways.

Thanks,
Kurt Mattes
VP - Electronic Communications Accessibility Team | JPMorgan Chase & Company


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 7:00 AM
To: Andy Keyworth; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

OK, I'll bite

04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:
> Hi,
>
> I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be
> accessibly formatted on web pages.
>
> For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally)
> acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between
> letters) be preferable? Is another format better?

As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.

(Note that date formats are different. You do a lot better for most people
using DD Month YYYY, e.g. 12 November 2014 than any shorthand. But I doubt
that is news).

cheers

>
> Thank you,
>
> Andy Keyworth
> Senior Web Accessibility Specialist
> T-Base Communications
> Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256 www.tbase.com |
> Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL
> FORMATS.TM
>
> This email may contain information that is privileged and
> confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please
> delete this email message immediately.

--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
[hidden email] - - - Find more at http://yandex.com


This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential,
legally privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.  If
you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained
herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  Although
this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus
or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is
received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure
that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by JPMorgan Chase &
Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates, as applicable, for any loss or damage
arising in any way from its use.  If you received this transmission in
error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its
entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you.


-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8521 - Release Date: 11/06/14


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Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

John Topp
Wouldn’t the periods be needed so that the screen reader doesn’t pronounce them as words?  Or better yet, use capitals? AM PM

On Nov 7, 2014, at 9:59 AM, Andy Keyworth <[hidden email]> wrote:

04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:
Hi,

I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be 
accessibly formatted on web pages.

For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally) 
acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between 
letters) be preferable? Is another format better?

As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.





The information contained in this message is confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity named above or their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message.
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Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Olaf Drümmer
Better yet, express time using 24 hours…. AM and PM should never have been invented…. ;-)

Olaf

On 7 Nov 2014, at 16:23, John Topp <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wouldn’t the periods be needed so that the screen reader doesn’t pronounce them as words?  Or better yet, use capitals? AM PM

On Nov 7, 2014, at 9:59 AM, Andy Keyworth <[hidden email]> wrote:

04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:
Hi,

I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be 
accessibly formatted on web pages.

For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally) 
acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between 
letters) be preferable? Is another format better?

As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.





The information contained in this message is confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity named above or their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message.

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RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

John Foliot

I'm actually with John on this one…

 

In part this is affected by some user-settings, but as I recall by defaults most screen readers will normally read upper-case letters aloud, so 9:00 AM would be read aloud as "nine aye em", whilst lower case 'might' be read as "nine am" (as in "I am concerned about this")

 

Based upon that, my Best Practices would be to *always* note AM and PM in uppercase - and if you read through even just this response thread, you'll note that email clients are already using upper-case by default (presumption based upon observations).

 

However, I wondered if the Chicago Style guide (or others) had anything to say here, and 5 minutes with Google confirms the following:

·        AP Style Guide: uses lower-case with periods (Example 1:00 a.m. or 3:00 p.m.)

·        Chicago Manual of Style: uses lower-case with periods

·        The New York Times Manual: uses lower-case with periods

·        Oxford Style Guide: uses lower-case, no periods (I personally would not recommend this, due to the 'am' issue)

 

FWIW.

 

JF

 

 

From: Olaf Drümmer [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 7:41 AM
To: WAI Interest Group
Cc: Olaf Drümmer
Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

Better yet, express time using 24 hours…. AM and PM should never have been invented…. ;-)

 

Olaf

 

On 7 Nov 2014, at 16:23, John Topp <[hidden email]> wrote:



Wouldn’t the periods be needed so that the screen reader doesn’t pronounce them as words?  Or better yet, use capitals? AM PM

 

On Nov 7, 2014, at 9:59 AM, Andy Keyworth <[hidden email]> wrote:



04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:

Hi,

I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be 
accessibly formatted on web pages.

For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally) 
acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between 
letters) be preferable? Is another format better?


As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.

 

 

 



The information contained in this message is confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity named above or their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message.

 

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RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Andy Keyworth

Thank you John,

 

That’s a very comprehensive answer, and probably the best way to go.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy Keyworth
Senior Web Accessibility Specialist

T-Base Communications

Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256

www.tbase.com | Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON

ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL FORMATS.TM

 

This email may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please delete this email message immediately.

 

From: John Foliot [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: November-07-14 11:38 AM
To: 'Olaf Drümmer'; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

I'm actually with John on this one…

 

In part this is affected by some user-settings, but as I recall by defaults most screen readers will normally read upper-case letters aloud, so 9:00 AM would be read aloud as "nine aye em", whilst lower case 'might' be read as "nine am" (as in "I am concerned about this")

 

Based upon that, my Best Practices would be to *always* note AM and PM in uppercase - and if you read through even just this response thread, you'll note that email clients are already using upper-case by default (presumption based upon observations).

 

However, I wondered if the Chicago Style guide (or others) had anything to say here, and 5 minutes with Google confirms the following:

·         AP Style Guide: uses lower-case with periods (Example 1:00 a.m. or 3:00 p.m.)

·         Chicago Manual of Style: uses lower-case with periods

·         The New York Times Manual: uses lower-case with periods

·         Oxford Style Guide: uses lower-case, no periods (I personally would not recommend this, due to the 'am' issue)

 

FWIW.

 

JF

 

 

From: Olaf Drümmer [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 7:41 AM
To: WAI Interest Group
Cc: Olaf Drümmer
Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

Better yet, express time using 24 hours…. AM and PM should never have been invented…. ;-)

 

Olaf

 

On 7 Nov 2014, at 16:23, John Topp <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

Wouldn’t the periods be needed so that the screen reader doesn’t pronounce them as words?  Or better yet, use capitals? AM PM

 

On Nov 7, 2014, at 9:59 AM, Andy Keyworth <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:

Hi,

I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be 
accessibly formatted on web pages.

For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally) 
acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between 
letters) be preferable? Is another format better?


As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.

 

 

 



The information contained in this message is confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity named above or their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message.

 


No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8521 - Release Date: 11/06/14

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RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo
In reply to this post by Mattes, Kurt X1
I think that the most "accesible" is the international format: yyyy/mm/dd,
for example: 2014/11/07

This can be understood by any person in any language.

And for the hours the 24 hours format: 23:00

See the ISO 8601 "Data elements and interchange formats — Information
interchange — Representation of dates and times"

Regards,

Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo
Patrono y Directora General
Fundación Sidar - Acceso Universal
Email: [hidden email]
Personal: [hidden email]
Web: http://sidar.org




-----Mensaje original-----
De: Mattes, Kurt X1 [mailto:[hidden email]]
Enviado el: viernes, 07 de noviembre de 2014 15:50
Para: [hidden email]; Andy Keyworth; 'WAI Interest Group'
Asunto: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Agree with Chaals and only add that consistency in the way it is presented
is an important part of comprehending any information that is commonly
presented in various ways.

Thanks,
Kurt Mattes
VP - Electronic Communications Accessibility Team | JPMorgan Chase & Company


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 7:00 AM
To: Andy Keyworth; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

OK, I'll bite

04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:
> Hi,
>
> I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be
> accessibly formatted on web pages.
>
> For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally)
> acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between
> letters) be preferable? Is another format better?

As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.

(Note that date formats are different. You do a lot better for most people
using DD Month YYYY, e.g. 12 November 2014 than any shorthand. But I doubt
that is news).

cheers

>
> Thank you,
>
> Andy Keyworth
> Senior Web Accessibility Specialist
> T-Base Communications
> Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256 www.tbase.com |
> Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL
> FORMATS.TM
>
> This email may contain information that is privileged and
> confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please
> delete this email message immediately.

--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
[hidden email] - - - Find more at http://yandex.com


This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential,
legally privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.  If
you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained
herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  Although
this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus
or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is
received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure
that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by JPMorgan Chase &
Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates, as applicable, for any loss or damage
arising in any way from its use.  If you received this transmission in
error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its
entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you.


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RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Howard Leicester
In reply to this post by Andy Keyworth

Thanks, All, for useful discussion,

 

I’m just thinking that presentation of dates and phone numbers, in addition to times, may be in the same bracket?

 

Perhaps we find a ‘standard’ for all, and rely on Assistive Technologies to present in the most appropriate formate?

 

VV best,

Howard

(Kent, England)

 

 


From: Andy Keyworth [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: 07 November 2014 16:49
To: 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

Thank you John,

 

That’s a very comprehensive answer, and probably the best way to go.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy Keyworth
Senior Web Accessibility Specialist

T-Base Communications

Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256

www.tbase.com | Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON

ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL FORMATS.TM

 

This email may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please delete this email message immediately.

 

From: John Foliot [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: November-07-14 11:38 AM
To: 'Olaf Drümmer'; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

I'm actually with John on this one…

 

In part this is affected by some user-settings, but as I recall by defaults most screen readers will normally read upper-case letters aloud, so 9:00 AM would be read aloud as "nine aye em", whilst lower case 'might' be read as "nine am" (as in "I am concerned about this")

 

Based upon that, my Best Practices would be to *always* note AM and PM in uppercase - and if you read through even just this response thread, you'll note that email clients are already using upper-case by default (presumption based upon observations).

 

However, I wondered if the Chicago Style guide (or others) had anything to say here, and 5 minutes with Google confirms the following:

·         AP Style Guide: uses lower-case with periods (Example 1:00 a.m. or 3:00 p.m.)

·         Chicago Manual of Style: uses lower-case with periods

·         The New York Times Manual: uses lower-case with periods

·         Oxford Style Guide: uses lower-case, no periods (I personally would not recommend this, due to the 'am' issue)

 

FWIW.

 

JF

 

 

From: Olaf Drümmer [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 7:41 AM
To: WAI Interest Group
Cc: Olaf Drümmer
Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

Better yet, express time using 24 hours…. AM and PM should never have been invented…. ;-)

 

Olaf

 

On 7 Nov 2014, at 16:23, John Topp <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

Wouldn’t the periods be needed so that the screen reader doesn’t pronounce them as words?  Or better yet, use capitals? AM PM

 

On Nov 7, 2014, at 9:59 AM, Andy Keyworth <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:

Hi,

I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be 
accessibly formatted on web pages.

For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally) 
acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between 
letters) be preferable? Is another format better?


As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.

 

 

 



The information contained in this message is confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity named above or their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message.

 


No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8521 - Release Date: 11/06/14

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Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Druckman,Geri
So given the fact that I was really curious, but only tested it briefly, and only with VoiceOver on my Mac (I was too lazy to pull the HTML up on my Windows station where I have also JAWS and NVDA).

I created a small HTML file with 4 sentences:

this is some text and it is 10:00 am in the morning  -  VoiceOver read am as a word, pronouncing it ăm

this is some text and it is 11:00 a.m. in the morning  -  VoiceOver read a.m. as a m separating the a and m sounds

this is some text and it is 9:00 AM in the morning  -  VoiceOver read AM as A M separating the A and M sounds

this is some text and it is 8:00 A.M. in the morning  -  VoiceOver read A.M. as A M separating the A and M sounds

Those were my quick test result from all 4 time formats, using VoiceOver.

Hope this helps.

Geri Druckman

Web Development Specialist - Accessibility

Department of Digital Experience

MD Anderson Cancer Center

T 713-792-6293 | F 713-745-8134



From: Howard Leicester <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Date: Friday, November 7, 2014 at 2:17 PM
To: 'Andy Keyworth' <[hidden email]>, 'WAI Interest Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting
Resent-From: <[hidden email]>
Resent-Date: Friday, November 7, 2014 at 2:18 PM

Thanks, All, for useful discussion,

 

I’m just thinking that presentation of dates and phone numbers, in addition to times, may be in the same bracket?

 

Perhaps we find a ‘standard’ for all, and rely on Assistive Technologies to present in the most appropriate formate?

 

VV best,

Howard

(Kent, England)

 

 


From: Andy Keyworth [[hidden email]]
Sent: 07 November 2014 16:49
To: 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

Thank you John,

 

That’s a very comprehensive answer, and probably the best way to go.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy Keyworth
Senior Web Accessibility Specialist

T-Base Communications

Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256

www.tbase.com| Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON

ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL FORMATS.TM

 

This email may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please delete this email message immediately.

 

From: John Foliot [[hidden email]]
Sent: November-07-14 11:38 AM
To: 'Olaf Drümmer'; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

I'm actually with John on this one…

 

In part this is affected by some user-settings, but as I recall by defaults most screen readers will normally read upper-case letters aloud, so 9:00 AM would be read aloud as "nine aye em", whilst lower case 'might' be read as "nine am" (as in "I am concerned about this")

 

Based upon that, my Best Practices would be to *always* note AM and PM in uppercase - and if you read through even just this response thread, you'll note that email clients are already using upper-case by default (presumption based upon observations).

 

However, I wondered if the Chicago Style guide (or others) had anything to say here, and 5 minutes with Google confirms the following:

·         AP Style Guide: uses lower-case with periods (Example 1:00 a.m. or 3:00 p.m.)

·         Chicago Manual of Style: uses lower-case with periods

·         The New York Times Manual: uses lower-case with periods

·         Oxford Style Guide: uses lower-case, no periods (I personally would not recommend this, due to the 'am' issue)

 

FWIW.

 

JF

 

 

From: Olaf Drümmer [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 7:41 AM
To: WAI Interest Group
Cc: Olaf Drümmer
Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

Better yet, express time using 24 hours…. AM and PM should never have been invented…. ;-)

 

Olaf

 

On 7 Nov 2014, at 16:23, John Topp <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

Wouldn’t the periods be needed so that the screen reader doesn’t pronounce them as words?  Or better yet, use capitals? AM PM

 

On Nov 7, 2014, at 9:59 AM, Andy Keyworth <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:

Hi,

I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be 
accessibly formatted on web pages.

For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally) 
acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between 
letters) be preferable? Is another format better?


As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.

 

 

 



The information contained in this message is confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity named above or their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message.

 


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Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8521 - Release Date: 11/06/14

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RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

John Foliot

Hi Geri,

 

Thanks for the test results (confirms as I suspected). Is your test file available online? Others could test other browser/AT combos if it were.

 

Cheers!

 

JF

 

From: Druckman,Geri [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 3:31 PM
To: 'WAI Interest Group'
Cc: Andy Keyworth
Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

So given the fact that I was really curious, but only tested it briefly, and only with VoiceOver on my Mac (I was too lazy to pull the HTML up on my Windows station where I have also JAWS and NVDA).

 

I created a small HTML file with 4 sentences:

 

this is some text and it is 10:00 am in the morning  -  VoiceOver read am as a word, pronouncing it ăm

this is some text and it is 11:00 a.m. in the morning  -  VoiceOver read a.m. as a m separating the a and m sounds

this is some text and it is 9:00 AM in the morning  -  VoiceOver read AM as A M separating the A and M sounds

this is some text and it is 8:00 A.M. in the morning  -  VoiceOver read A.M. as A M separating the A and M sounds

Those were my quick test result from all 4 time formats, using VoiceOver.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Geri Druckman

Web Development Specialist - Accessibility

Department of Digital Experience

MD Anderson Cancer Center

T 713-792-6293 | F 713-745-8134

 

 

From: Howard Leicester <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Date: Friday, November 7, 2014 at 2:17 PM
To: 'Andy Keyworth' <[hidden email]>, 'WAI Interest Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting
Resent-From: <[hidden email]>
Resent-Date: Friday, November 7, 2014 at 2:18 PM

 

Thanks, All, for useful discussion,

 

I’m just thinking that presentation of dates and phone numbers, in addition to times, may be in the same bracket?

 

Perhaps we find a ‘standard’ for all, and rely on Assistive Technologies to present in the most appropriate formate?

 

VV best,

Howard

(Kent, England)

 

 


From: Andy Keyworth [[hidden email]]
Sent: 07 November 2014 16:49
To: 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

Thank you John,

 

That’s a very comprehensive answer, and probably the best way to go.

 

Cheers,

 

Andy Keyworth
Senior Web Accessibility Specialist

T-Base Communications

Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256

www.tbase.com| Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON

ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL FORMATS.TM

 

This email may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please delete this email message immediately.

 

From: John Foliot [[hidden email]]
Sent: November-07-14 11:38 AM
To: 'Olaf Drümmer'; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

I'm actually with John on this one…

 

In part this is affected by some user-settings, but as I recall by defaults most screen readers will normally read upper-case letters aloud, so 9:00 AM would be read aloud as "nine aye em", whilst lower case 'might' be read as "nine am" (as in "I am concerned about this")

 

Based upon that, my Best Practices would be to *always* note AM and PM in uppercase - and if you read through even just this response thread, you'll note that email clients are already using upper-case by default (presumption based upon observations).

 

However, I wondered if the Chicago Style guide (or others) had anything to say here, and 5 minutes with Google confirms the following:

·       AP Style Guide: uses lower-case with periods (Example 1:00 a.m. or 3:00 p.m.)

·       Chicago Manual of Style: uses lower-case with periods

·       The New York Times Manual: uses lower-case with periods

·       Oxford Style Guide: uses lower-case, no periods (I personally would not recommend this, due to the 'am' issue)

 

FWIW.

 

JF

 

 

From: Olaf Drümmer [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, November 7, 2014 7:41 AM
To: WAI Interest Group
Cc: Olaf Drümmer
Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

 

Better yet, express time using 24 hours…. AM and PM should never have been invented…. ;-)

 

Olaf

 

On 7 Nov 2014, at 16:23, John Topp <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

Wouldn’t the periods be needed so that the screen reader doesn’t pronounce them as words?  Or better yet, use capitals? AM PM

 

On Nov 7, 2014, at 9:59 AM, Andy Keyworth <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:

Hi,

I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be 
accessibly formatted on web pages.

For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally) 
acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between 
letters) be preferable? Is another format better?


As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.

 

 

 



The information contained in this message is confidential. It is intended to be read only by the individual or entity named above or their designee. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any distribution of this message, in any form, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete or destroy any copy of this message.

 


No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4765 / Virus Database: 4189/8521 - Release Date: 11/06/14

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Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Chaals McCathie Nevile
In reply to this post by Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo
07.11.2014, 19:37, "Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo" <[hidden email]>:
> I think that the most "accesible" is the international format: yyyy/mm/dd,
> for example: 2014/11/07
>
> This can be understood by any person in any language.
>
> And for the hours the 24 hours format: 23:00

This is fine for *most of the world*.

Unfortunately Americans are especially unlikely to understand either of these formats. Like telling them someone is 150cm tall - they just don't know what that means.

Or like telling most of the world that someone is 6 feet 4 and weighs 16 stone.

It turns out not to be directly accessible to people.

> See the ISO 8601 "Data elements and interchange formats — Information
> interchange — Representation of dates and times"

The problem is that people don't have browsers that can pick up measurements and translate them to things the user will actually understand.

Sounds like a useful thing for schema.org to help with, actually.

cheers

> Regards,
>
> Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo
> Patrono y Directora General
> Fundación Sidar - Acceso Universal
> Email: [hidden email]
> Personal: [hidden email]
> Web: http://sidar.org
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: Mattes, Kurt X1 [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Enviado el: viernes, 07 de noviembre de 2014 15:50
> Para: [hidden email]; Andy Keyworth; 'WAI Interest Group'
> Asunto: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting
>
> Agree with Chaals and only add that consistency in the way it is presented
> is an important part of comprehending any information that is commonly
> presented in various ways.
>
> Thanks,
> Kurt Mattes
> VP - Electronic Communications Accessibility Team | JPMorgan Chase & Company
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 7:00 AM
> To: Andy Keyworth; 'WAI Interest Group'
> Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting
>
> OK, I'll bite
>
> 04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:
>>  Hi,
>>
>>  I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be
>>  accessibly formatted on web pages.
>>
>>  For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally)
>>  acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between
>>  letters) be preferable? Is another format better?
>
> As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.
>
> (Note that date formats are different. You do a lot better for most people
> using DD Month YYYY, e.g. 12 November 2014 than any shorthand. But I doubt
> that is news).
>
> cheers
>>  Thank you,
>>
>>  Andy Keyworth
>>  Senior Web Accessibility Specialist
>>  T-Base Communications
>>  Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256 www.tbase.com |
>>  Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL
>>  FORMATS.TM
>>
>>  This email may contain information that is privileged and
>>  confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please
>>  delete this email message immediately.
>
> --
> Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
> [hidden email] - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
>
> This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential,
> legally privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.  If
> you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
> disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained
> herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  Although
> this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus
> or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is
> received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure
> that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by JPMorgan Chase &
> Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates, as applicable, for any loss or damage
> arising in any way from its use.  If you received this transmission in
> error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its
> entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you.

--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
[hidden email] - - - Find more at http://yandex.com

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Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Accessys@smart.net

but this is the way a computer (normally) sorts things so if cronological
order or date time order is important this would be the way to do it.

Bob

On Sat, 8 Nov 2014 [hidden email] wrote:

> Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 01:30:27 +0100
> From: [hidden email]
> To: "[utf-8] Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo" <[hidden email]>,
>     "'Mattes, Kurt X1'" <[hidden email]>,
>     'Andy Keyworth' <[hidden email]>,
>     'WAI Interest Group' <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting
> Resent-Date: Sat, 08 Nov 2014 00:31:01 +0000
> Resent-From: [hidden email]
>
> 07.11.2014, 19:37, "Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo" <[hidden email]>:
>> I think that the most "accesible" is the international format: yyyy/mm/dd,
>> for example: 2014/11/07
>>
>> This can be understood by any person in any language.
>>
>> And for the hours the 24 hours format: 23:00
>
> This is fine for *most of the world*.
>
> Unfortunately Americans are especially unlikely to understand either of these formats. Like telling them someone is 150cm tall - they just don't know what that means.
>
> Or like telling most of the world that someone is 6 feet 4 and weighs 16 stone.
>
> It turns out not to be directly accessible to people.
>
>> See the ISO 8601 "Data elements and interchange formats — Information
>> interchange — Representation of dates and times"
>
> The problem is that people don't have browsers that can pick up measurements and translate them to things the user will actually understand.
>
> Sounds like a useful thing for schema.org to help with, actually.
>
> cheers
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo
>> Patrono y Directora General
>> Fundación Sidar - Acceso Universal
>> Email: [hidden email]
>> Personal: [hidden email]
>> Web: http://sidar.org
>>
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: Mattes, Kurt X1 [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Enviado el: viernes, 07 de noviembre de 2014 15:50
>> Para: [hidden email]; Andy Keyworth; 'WAI Interest Group'
>> Asunto: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting
>>
>> Agree with Chaals and only add that consistency in the way it is presented
>> is an important part of comprehending any information that is commonly
>> presented in various ways.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Kurt Mattes
>> VP - Electronic Communications Accessibility Team | JPMorgan Chase & Company
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 7:00 AM
>> To: Andy Keyworth; 'WAI Interest Group'
>> Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting
>>
>> OK, I'll bite
>>
>> 04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:
>>>  Hi,
>>>
>>>  I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be
>>>  accessibly formatted on web pages.
>>>
>>>  For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally)
>>>  acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between
>>>  letters) be preferable? Is another format better?
>>
>> As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.
>>
>> (Note that date formats are different. You do a lot better for most people
>> using DD Month YYYY, e.g. 12 November 2014 than any shorthand. But I doubt
>> that is news).
>>
>> cheers
>>>  Thank you,
>>>
>>>  Andy Keyworth
>>>  Senior Web Accessibility Specialist
>>>  T-Base Communications
>>>  Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256 www.tbase.com |
>>>  Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL
>>>  FORMATS.TM
>>>
>>>  This email may contain information that is privileged and
>>>  confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please
>>>  delete this email message immediately.
>>
>> --
>> Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
>> [hidden email] - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
>>
>> This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential,
>> legally privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.  If
>> you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
>> disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained
>> herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  Although
>> this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus
>> or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is
>> received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure
>> that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by JPMorgan Chase &
>> Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates, as applicable, for any loss or damage
>> arising in any way from its use.  If you received this transmission in
>> error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its
>> entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you.
>
> --
> Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
> [hidden email] - - - Find more at http://yandex.com
>

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Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Olaf Drümmer-3
In reply to this post by Chaals McCathie Nevile
On 8 Nov 2014, at 01:30, [hidden email] wrote:

> Unfortunately Americans are especially unlikely to understand either of these formats. Like telling them someone is 150cm tall - they just don't know what that means.

I guess you are referring not to Americans, but to people from the USA, right? Maybe it's time - given they represent less than 5% of the population on earth - they adopt what most other countries are doing already?

Olaf


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Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Chaals McCathie Nevile
08.11.2014, 01:54, "Olaf Drümmer" <[hidden email]>:
> On 8 Nov 2014, at 01:30, [hidden email] wrote:
>>  Unfortunately Americans are especially unlikely to understand either of these formats. Like telling them someone is 150cm tall - they just don't know what that means.
>
> I guess you are referring not to Americans, but to people from the USA, right? Maybe it's time - given they represent less than 5% of the population on earth - they adopt what most other countries are doing already?

No. While this is most concentrated in the USA, there are similarities across the two american continents that make them unlike the rest of the world.

And while I think it would be really nice if they were less attached to their pretty primitive scientific frameworks, getting information to the people doesn't work so well if you start from 'the people ought to think different".

cheers

--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
[hidden email] - - - Find more at http://yandex.com

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Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Felix Miata-2
In reply to this post by Chaals McCathie Nevile
[hidden email] composed on 2014-11-08 01:30 (UTC+0100):

> Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo composed:

>> I think that the most "accesible" is the international format: yyyy/mm/dd,
>> for example: 2014/11/07

>> This can be understood by any person in any language.

>> And for the hours the 24 hours format: 23:00

> This is fine for *most of the world*.

> Unfortunately Americans are especially unlikely to understand either of these formats.

Most "Americans" do know a normal day is comprised of 24 hours. Those who use
computers should be assumed to be smart enough to look up something they see
on the internet but don't understand. Those who haven't already been exposed
to 24 hours clocks in schools or elsewhere are a dying breed. It's high time
everybody, American or not, learned the substance of iso 8601, embracing
logical and readily sortable order in date and time strings, and stopped
perpetuating illogical little and mixed-endian date and time confusion
escaping their own sub-global existence.
--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

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Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Gregg Vanderheiden RTF
In reply to this post by Chaals McCathie Nevile
the format we use in all of our international teams is 

07-November-2014 
    or 
07-Nov-2014

Both are universally understood by all team members from all countries. 

Gregg


On Nov 7, 2014, at 6:30 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

07.11.2014, 19:37, "Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo" <[hidden email]>:
I think that the most "accesible" is the international format: yyyy/mm/dd,
for example: 2014/11/07

This can be understood by any person in any language.

And for the hours the 24 hours format: 23:00

This is fine for *most of the world*.

Unfortunately Americans are especially unlikely to understand either of these formats. Like telling them someone is 150cm tall - they just don't know what that means.

Or like telling most of the world that someone is 6 feet 4 and weighs 16 stone.

It turns out not to be directly accessible to people.

See the ISO 8601 "Data elements and interchange formats — Information
interchange — Representation of dates and times"

The problem is that people don't have browsers that can pick up measurements and translate them to things the user will actually understand.

Sounds like a useful thing for schema.org to help with, actually.

cheers

Regards,

Emmanuelle Gutiérrez y Restrepo
Patrono y Directora General
Fundación Sidar - Acceso Universal
Email: [hidden email]
Personal: [hidden email]
Web: http://sidar.org

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Mattes, Kurt X1 [[hidden email]]
Enviado el: viernes, 07 de noviembre de 2014 15:50
Para: [hidden email]; Andy Keyworth; 'WAI Interest Group'
Asunto: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Agree with Chaals and only add that consistency in the way it is presented
is an important part of comprehending any information that is commonly
presented in various ways.

Thanks,
Kurt Mattes
VP - Electronic Communications Accessibility Team | JPMorgan Chase & Company

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 7:00 AM
To: Andy Keyworth; 'WAI Interest Group'
Subject: Re: Opinions on accessible time formatting

OK, I'll bite

04.11.2014, 16:12, "Andy Keyworth" <[hidden email]>:
 Hi,

 I'm hoping I can get some advice on how expressions of time can be
 accessibly formatted on web pages.

 For example, is 11:00 a.m. or 2:00 p.m. considered (generally)
 acceptable, or would 11:00 am or 2:00 pm (without periods between
 letters) be preferable? Is another format better?

As far as I know, these are pretty much equal in reality.

(Note that date formats are different. You do a lot better for most people
using DD Month YYYY, e.g. 12 November 2014 than any shorthand. But I doubt
that is news).

cheers
 Thank you,

 Andy Keyworth
 Senior Web Accessibility Specialist
 T-Base Communications
 Phone: 613-236-0866 | Toll free: 1-800-563-0668 x 1256 www.tbase.com |
 Ogdensburg, NY | Ottawa, ON ALL TOUCH POINTS. ALL ACCESS METHODS. ALL
 FORMATS.TM

 This email may contain information that is privileged and
 confidential. If you have received this communication in error, please
 delete this email message immediately.

--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
[hidden email] - - - Find more at http://yandex.com

This transmission may contain information that is privileged, confidential,
legally privileged, and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law.  If
you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any
disclosure, copying, distribution, or use of the information contained
herein (including any reliance thereon) is STRICTLY PROHIBITED.  Although
this transmission and any attachments are believed to be free of any virus
or other defect that might affect any computer system into which it is
received and opened, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure
that it is virus free and no responsibility is accepted by JPMorgan Chase &
Co., its subsidiaries and affiliates, as applicable, for any loss or damage
arising in any way from its use.  If you received this transmission in
error, please immediately contact the sender and destroy the material in its
entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you.

--
Charles McCathie Nevile - web standards - CTO Office, Yandex
[hidden email] - - - Find more at http://yandex.com

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RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

John Foliot
In reply to this post by Felix Miata-2
Felix Miata wrote:

>
> Most "Americans" do know a normal day is comprised of 24 hours. Those
> who use computers should be assumed to be smart enough to look up
> something they see on the internet but don't understand. Those who
> haven't already been exposed to 24 hours clocks in schools or elsewhere
> are a dying breed. It's high time everybody, American or not, learned
> the substance of iso 8601, embracing logical and readily sortable order
> in date and time strings, and stopped perpetuating illogical little and
> mixed-endian date and time confusion escaping their own sub-global
> existence.

Just a gentle reminder to folks that one of the user-groups we advocate for
are those with cognitive disabilities. I am quite troubled to hear such
strident "they must change" language - what if they can't?

JF



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RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Oscar Cao
In reply to this post by Andy Keyworth
Great point John.

Might be a little off topic, but thought I'll try sneak it in this thread.

I've been thinking about - what if it's something we cannot achieve simply because  of technology limitations, time limitations, or just our own expertise?

How has others handled this scenario in the past? I mean, developer is trying to do the best they can, but it's still not enough to be accessible to everyone?

I've come to realise, you cannot make something to be fully accessible to everyone, in particular are interactive activities such as shooting games.

OC

From: [hidden email]
Sent: ‎8/‎11/‎2014 3:49 PM
To: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: Opinions on accessible time formatting

Felix Miata wrote:
>
> Most "Americans" do know a normal day is comprised of 24 hours. Those
> who use computers should be assumed to be smart enough to look up
> something they see on the internet but don't understand. Those who
> haven't already been exposed to 24 hours clocks in schools or elsewhere
> are a dying breed. It's high time everybody, American or not, learned
> the substance of iso 8601, embracing logical and readily sortable order
> in date and time strings, and stopped perpetuating illogical little and
> mixed-endian date and time confusion escaping their own sub-global
> existence.

Just a gentle reminder to folks that one of the user-groups we advocate for
are those with cognitive disabilities. I am quite troubled to hear such
strident "they must change" language - what if they can't?

JF



12