HTML <head> article updated

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
16 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

HTML <head> article updated

Chris Mills-6
UPDATE - 4th August 2011: I've updated http://www.w3.org/wiki/The_HTML_head_element to clean up language, add new HTML5 features, and add in a new section about doctypes, to replace Choosing the right doctype for your HTML documents (http://www.w3.org/wiki/Choosing_the_right_doctype_for_your_HTML_documents). The original article was a bit long winded, and needed a lot of updates to account for new thinking about doctypes, HTML5 doctype, etc.

this is ready for proofing/translation now.

QUESTION - should this big new doctype section be put into a new article? Does it make the article a bit too long?



--

Chris Mills
Open standards evangelist and dev.opera.com editor
Opera Software

* Try our browsers: http://www.opera.com
* Learn to build a better web, with the Opera web standards curriculum: http://www.opera.com/wsc
* Learn about the latest open standards technologies and techniques: http://dev.opera.com



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Danilo Strauss Neto
Hi Chris, I think it should be separated into another article there.

Read it at once, but there is about half of the actual article speaking for just one element.

Cheers,
----------------------------------------
Danilo Strauss Neto
Web Project Manager / Graphic Designer
0 55 (31) 8872-6268 - Belo Horizonte, MG
[hidden email]
http://dbrainstorms.blogspot.com/



On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 12:56, Chris Mills <[hidden email]> wrote:
UPDATE - 4th August 2011: I've updated http://www.w3.org/wiki/The_HTML_head_element to clean up language, add new HTML5 features, and add in a new section about doctypes, to replace Choosing the right doctype for your HTML documents (http://www.w3.org/wiki/Choosing_the_right_doctype_for_your_HTML_documents). The original article was a bit long winded, and needed a lot of updates to account for new thinking about doctypes, HTML5 doctype, etc.

this is ready for proofing/translation now.

QUESTION - should this big new doctype section be put into a new article? Does it make the article a bit too long?



--

Chris Mills
Open standards evangelist and dev.opera.com editor
Opera Software

* Try our browsers: http://www.opera.com
* Learn to build a better web, with the Opera web standards curriculum: http://www.opera.com/wsc
* Learn about the latest open standards technologies and techniques: http://dev.opera.com




Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Chris Mills-6

On 4 Aug 2011, at 17:14, Danilo Strauss Neto wrote:

> Hi Chris, I think it should be separated into another article there.
>
> Read it at once, but there is about half of the actual article speaking for just one element.

Thanks for the feedback Danilo! I think I'll do it.


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Chris Mills-6
In reply to this post by Danilo Strauss Neto
Ok,

I've moved the doctype information to http://www.w3.org/wiki/Doctypes_and_markup_styles

Let me know what you think.

--

Chris Mills
Open standards evangelist and dev.opera.com editor
Opera Software

* Try our browsers: http://www.opera.com
* Learn to build a better web, with the Opera web standards curriculum: http://www.opera.com/wsc
* Learn about the latest open standards technologies and techniques: http://dev.opera.com


On 4 Aug 2011, at 17:14, Danilo Strauss Neto wrote:

Hi Chris, I think it should be separated into another article there.

Read it at once, but there is about half of the actual article speaking for just one element.

Cheers,
----------------------------------------
Danilo Strauss Neto
Web Project Manager / Graphic Designer
0 55 (31) 8872-6268 - Belo Horizonte, MG
[hidden email]
http://dbrainstorms.blogspot.com/



On Thu, Aug 4, 2011 at 12:56, Chris Mills <[hidden email]> wrote:
UPDATE - 4th August 2011: I've updated http://www.w3.org/wiki/The_HTML_head_element to clean up language, add new HTML5 features, and add in a new section about doctypes, to replace Choosing the right doctype for your HTML documents (http://www.w3.org/wiki/Choosing_the_right_doctype_for_your_HTML_documents). The original article was a bit long winded, and needed a lot of updates to account for new thinking about doctypes, HTML5 doctype, etc.

this is ready for proofing/translation now.

QUESTION - should this big new doctype section be put into a new article? Does it make the article a bit too long?



--

Chris Mills
Open standards evangelist and dev.opera.com editor
Opera Software

* Try our browsers: http://www.opera.com
* Learn to build a better web, with the Opera web standards curriculum: http://www.opera.com/wsc
* Learn about the latest open standards technologies and techniques: http://dev.opera.com





Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

r12a
In reply to this post by Chris Mills-6
Hello Chris,

[cc www-international so that they know i have sent feedback, and in
case others wish to comment]

Here's some feedback on http://www.w3.org/wiki/The_HTML_head_element

"The language codes may be two-letter codes, such as en for English,
four-letter codes such as en-US for American English, or other, less
common, codes. The two-letter codes are defined in ISO 639-1, although
modern best practice dictates that you should use the IANA subtag
registry for your language code definitions."

I think this paragraph needs a fair bit of attention.

[1] language codes => language tags  (for consistency and clarity -
codes was used in the past to refer to ISO language codes or region
codes, but something like en-US is two such codes (though only one
language tag)).  (btw, en and US are both 'subtags' - be careful not to
mix tags with subtags)

[2] language subtags can be 2 or 3 letters, region subtags can be 2 or 3
alphanum characters, so the opening part of the paragraph is quite
misleading.

[3] i strongly urge to not refer people to ISO 639 - they should use the
IANA registry to look things up (and you may want to point to
http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/ which makes lookup a little more user
friendly).

[4] 'modern best practice': well actually its in the standards, so it's
a little more than best practice

[5] it may be better for this audience to link to
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags 
rather than  http://www.w3.org/International/articles/language-tags/



"Don't worry too much about this for now. utf-8 is the universal
character set, which includes pretty much any character that you might
want to use on a web page, from any common human language, so it is a
good idea to declare this to make sure you HTML has full international
capabilities. In addition, you can avoid a serious Internet Explorer
security risk by declaring it in the first 512 bytes of the page. So
just below the <head> tag is fine. This is what all the below examples
will do."

[6] actually they need to worry about it at least enough to ensure that
they are actually *saving their document* as UTF-8, not just changing
the encoding declaration - otherwise, a doc saved as iso-8859-1 for
example will fail to display properly when it comes to accented
characters. They also need to be aware that the server may be overriding
their declaration.

I recommend that you step back a little in the wiki, add a brief
description of what an encoding is and why it's important, and add some
text to say that authors should ensure that their editor *saves the
text* in utf-8, but, if not, they should ensure that the charset
attribute should indicate what the actual encoding used is.  We have
some articles that can help people understand these concepts at
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-encodings
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-changing-encoding
http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-setting-encoding-in-applications

Hope that helps,
RI






On 04/08/2011 16:56, Chris Mills wrote:

> UPDATE - 4th August 2011: I've updated http://www.w3.org/wiki/The_HTML_head_element to clean up language, add new HTML5 features, and add in a new section about doctypes, to replace Choosing the right doctype for your HTML documents (http://www.w3.org/wiki/Choosing_the_right_doctype_for_your_HTML_documents). The original article was a bit long winded, and needed a lot of updates to account for new thinking about doctypes, HTML5 doctype, etc.
>
> this is ready for proofing/translation now.
>
> QUESTION - should this big new doctype section be put into a new article? Does it make the article a bit too long?
>
>
>
> --
>
> Chris Mills
> Open standards evangelist and dev.opera.com editor
> Opera Software
>
> * Try our browsers: http://www.opera.com
> * Learn to build a better web, with the Opera web standards curriculum: http://www.opera.com/wsc
> * Learn about the latest open standards technologies and techniques: http://dev.opera.com
>
>
>
>

--
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Activity Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/International/
http://rishida.net/


Register for the W3C MultilingualWeb Workshop!
Limerick, 21-22 September 2011
http://multilingualweb.eu/register

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Karl Dubost-2

Le 10 août 2011 à 08:31, Richard Ishida a écrit :
> Here's some feedback on http://www.w3.org/wiki/The_HTML_head_element
[…]
> I think this paragraph needs a fair bit of attention.


Richard it is a wiki. Just do it.


--
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

r12a
What the process for alerting the translators when the wiki changes?

RI


On 10/08/2011 13:45, Karl Dubost wrote:

>
> Le 10 août 2011 à 08:31, Richard Ishida a écrit :
>> Here's some feedback on http://www.w3.org/wiki/The_HTML_head_element
> […]
>> I think this paragraph needs a fair bit of attention.
>
>
> Richard it is a wiki. Just do it.
>
>

--
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Activity Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/International/
http://rishida.net/


Register for the W3C MultilingualWeb Workshop!
Limerick, 21-22 September 2011
http://multilingualweb.eu/register

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Karl Dubost-2

Le 10 août 2011 à 08:47, Richard Ishida a écrit :
> What the process for alerting the translators when the wiki changes?

As I said in a previous email, I expect that the translation will diverge with time, and each communities will take ownership of the content in their own culture/language.

Think about wikipedia.

--
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Coralie Mercier
In reply to this post by r12a

I share Richard's question.

Note: I'm not very used to wikis nor am I used to the work habits around  
them.

Thus far, I've been grateful that Chris Mills sends e-mail to this list  
when he updates articles. I take this as a signal that an article is ready  
for translation.

However, the nature of a wiki and the nature of the curriculum being that  
it is in constant evolution, makes it real hard for me to know when some  
resource is worth translating.

Karl's feedback to think about wikipedia isn't of much help to me. His  
feedback that he anticipates people to take ownership of content is of  
some help, assuming people who translate a page will "watch" that page for  
changes and apply changes to translations. Is this a fair characterization?

Coralie

On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 14:47:37 +0200, Richard Ishida <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What the process for alerting the translators when the wiki changes?
>
> RI
>
>
> On 10/08/2011 13:45, Karl Dubost wrote:
>>
>> Le 10 août 2011 à 08:31, Richard Ishida a écrit :
>>> Here's some feedback on http://www.w3.org/wiki/The_HTML_head_element
>> […]
>>> I think this paragraph needs a fair bit of attention.
>>
>>
>> Richard it is a wiki. Just do it.

--
Coralie Mercier - Communications Team - Incubator Activity Lead
              World Wide Web Consortium - http://www.w3.org
      W3C/ERCIM - N212 - 2004, rte des lucioles - 06410 Biot - FR
mailto:[hidden email] +33492387590 http://www.w3.org/People/CMercier/

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Chris Mills-6
In reply to this post by Karl Dubost-2
Hi there!

I was just out at lunch ;-)

Thanks for the comments Richard - much appreciated. If you have the time to do these updates, then fabulous. As Karl says, we are expecting translations to diverge from the original, so rather than worrying about keep the translations updated according to the originals, we can have "equivalents" in other languages that will cover the same stuff. this will be much easier to manage.

Let me know what changes you make to code examples, so I can update the example files.

best regards,

--

Chris Mills
Open standards evangelist and dev.opera.com editor
Opera Software

* Try our browsers: http://www.opera.com
* Learn to build a better web, with the Opera web standards curriculum: http://www.opera.com/wsc
* Learn about the latest open standards technologies and techniques: http://dev.opera.com


On 10 Aug 2011, at 13:49, Karl Dubost wrote:

>
> Le 10 août 2011 à 08:47, Richard Ishida a écrit :
>> What the process for alerting the translators when the wiki changes?
>
> As I said in a previous email, I expect that the translation will diverge with time, and each communities will take ownership of the content in their own culture/language.
>
> Think about wikipedia.
>
> --
> Karl Dubost
> Montréal, QC, Canada
> http://www.la-grange.net/karl/


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Chris Mills-6
In reply to this post by Coralie Mercier

On 10 Aug 2011, at 14:11, Coralie Mercier wrote:

>
> I share Richard's question.
>
> Note: I'm not very used to wikis nor am I used to the work habits around them.
>
> Thus far, I've been grateful that Chris Mills sends e-mail to this list when he updates articles. I take this as a signal that an article is ready for translation.
>
> However, the nature of a wiki and the nature of the curriculum being that it is in constant evolution, makes it real hard for me to know when some resource is worth translating.
>
> Karl's feedback to think about wikipedia isn't of much help to me. His feedback that he anticipates people to take ownership of content is of some help, assuming people who translate a page will "watch" that page for changes and apply changes to translations. Is this a fair characterization?

Hrm, yes. Fair points here. I guess that I am hoping that we can get some different members of the group keeping track of changes made so they can update the different language translations or "equivalents" as and when needed. We can keep track of this stuff more usefully as part of the web education community group's responsibilities.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Karl Dubost-2
In reply to this post by Coralie Mercier

Le 10 août 2011 à 09:11, Coralie Mercier a écrit :
> Karl's feedback to think about wikipedia isn't of much help to me. His feedback that he anticipates people to take ownership of content is of some help, assuming people who translate a page will "watch" that page for changes and apply changes to translations. Is this a fair characterization?

nope, I expect and I think it will be good that people will make these evolve in a way that we do not expect. Right now we see it as an official English source and translation of the English source in different languages.

What I expect in a multilingual wiki (such as wikipedia) is that people evolve the page on their own will diverging, refactoring, reorganizing their own way the content. Basically after a few months or years, there will be no identity in between pages on the same topic.

I know it is difficult to imagine when we are used to a controlled environment, but I think there is an intrinsic benefit in people handling the content the way they want.

These wiki pages are not specifications :)




--
Karl Dubost
Montréal, QC, Canada
http://www.la-grange.net/karl/


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Coralie Mercier
On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 15:19:50 +0200, Karl Dubost <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Le 10 août 2011 à 09:11, Coralie Mercier a écrit :
>> Karl's feedback to think about wikipedia isn't of much help to me. His  
>> feedback that he anticipates people to take ownership of content is of  
>> some help, assuming people who translate a page will "watch" that page  
>> for changes and apply changes to translations. Is this a fair  
>> characterization?
>
> nope, I expect and I think it will be good that people will make these  
> evolve in a way that we do not expect. Right now we see it as an  
> official English source and translation of the English source in  
> different languages.
>
> What I expect in a multilingual wiki (such as wikipedia) is that people  
> evolve the page on their own will diverging, refactoring, reorganizing  
> their own way the content. Basically after a few months or years, there  
> will be no identity in between pages on the same topic.
>
> I know it is difficult to imagine when we are used to a controlled  
> environment, but I think there is an intrinsic benefit in people  
> handling the content the way they want.
>
> These wiki pages are not specifications :)

Thanks, Karl.
That's helpful.

So now we (on the W3C side) only have to make this mediawiki multilingual.

--
Coralie Mercier - Communications Team - Incubator Activity Lead
              World Wide Web Consortium - http://www.w3.org
      W3C/ERCIM - N212 - 2004, rte des lucioles - 06410 Biot - FR
mailto:[hidden email] +33492387590 http://www.w3.org/People/CMercier/

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Gunnar Bittersmann-2
In reply to this post by r12a
> "Don't worry too much about this for now. utf-8 is the universal
> character set  […]"

No. UTF-8 is by no means a character set. It is a character encoding for
the Unicode set. [1]

I’ve changed "character set" to "character encoding" in the wiki.

Yet "the character encoding of your documents: the range of different
characters you want to use" still does not make much sense. Range of
characters means actually a character set, and it’s about the characters
used in the HTML source code, not the characters used in the page content.

The latter cannot be changed, it’s always the Unicode character set. [2]

Gunnar

[1] http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-what-is-encoding#what
[2] http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-doc-charset

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Jeremie Patonnier
In reply to this post by Coralie Mercier
Hello

I come a bit latter, but here's my 2ct ;)

2011/8/10 Coralie Mercier <[hidden email]>
On Wed, 10 Aug 2011 15:19:50 +0200, Karl Dubost <[hidden email]> wrote:

Le 10 août 2011 à 09:11, Coralie Mercier a écrit :
Karl's feedback to think about wikipedia isn't of much help to me. His feedback that he anticipates people to take ownership of content is of some help, assuming people who translate a page will "watch" that page for changes and apply changes to translations. Is this a fair characterization?

nope, I expect and I think it will be good that people will make these evolve in a way that we do not expect. Right now we see it as an official English source and translation of the English source in different languages.

What I expect in a multilingual wiki (such as wikipedia) is that people evolve the page on their own will diverging, refactoring, reorganizing their own way the content. Basically after a few months or years, there will be no identity in between pages on the same topic.

Exactly, a Wiki is something organic that grow with the will of the authors. If authors do not care about it, it become a mess. But if the authors are good gardener it can become like Versailles ;) I'm a big fan of (and contributor to) the MDN Documentation Wiki (https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs), I think it could be useful to see how they manage their community of contributors.
 

I know it is difficult to imagine when we are used to a controlled environment, but I think there is an intrinsic benefit in people handling the content the way they want.

These wiki pages are not specifications :)

The point is that contents must be accurate but in the case of that curriculum (and of a public wiki in general), it's important not to be too picky. At some points it's possible to forgive some technical issues and use "lies for children" in order to have things more understandable.
 
So now we (on the W3C side) only have to make this mediawiki multilingual.

Hell Yeah ! \o/

Cheers
--
Jeremie
.............................
Web : http://jeremie.patonnier.net
Twitter : @JeremiePat

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: HTML <head> article updated

Chris Mills-6
In reply to this post by Gunnar Bittersmann-2

On 10 Aug 2011, at 20:36, Gunnar Bittersmann wrote:

>> "Don't worry too much about this for now. utf-8 is the universal
>> character set  […]"
>
> No. UTF-8 is by no means a character set. It is a character encoding for the Unicode set. [1]
>
> I’ve changed "character set" to "character encoding" in the wiki.
>
> Yet "the character encoding of your documents: the range of different characters you want to use" still does not make much sense. Range of characters means actually a character set, and it’s about the characters used in the HTML source code, not the characters used in the page content.
>
> The latter cannot be changed, it’s always the Unicode character set. [2]
>
> Gunnar
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-what-is-encoding#what
> [2] http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-doc-charset

Thanks for the feedback Gunnar - this is useful, and much appreciated.