[Comment on ITS WD] Translatability

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[Comment on ITS WD] Translatability

r12a

Comment from the i18n review of:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060518/

Comment 5
At http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
Editorial/substantive: E
Owner: RI

Location in reviewed document:
6.2

Comment:
'Translatability' is not a good term for this, since it is already used in the sense of internationalization to allow for easy translation. Perhaps "Translation information" would be better, and more consistent with other data category titles.


FS: The first ITS WD already talks about "translatabilty". So does the requirements document http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-itsreq-20050805/#transinfo . Given this long history of the term which you must be aware of, I disagree with your request to change it. I also disagree with your argument of consistency with other data categories: Our envisaged users are likely to focus only on a subset of data categories, see also the conformance section which separates data categories. Hence, consistency of naming is not so important, but rather consistency between ITS working drafts, implementations, presentations, ... .


I18n: There is no need to be consistent in this regard with past working drafts. People should expect Working Drafts to change, as described in the status section. There is a much greater need to go forward with appropriate terminology.


We don't see that this is a difficult change to make.


"Our envisaged users are likely to focus only on a subset of data categories" We believe this is irrelevant to appropriate naming of a given data category, but in addition I don't think you are proposing that the 'translatability' category will always be usedindependently of other implementations, so I don't think this argument holds.


We may be prepared to accept that 'Translation Information' is too vague. Alternative suggestions for the title are 'Translate Information' or 'Translate Directive'.




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Re: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability

Felix Sasaki

Hello i18n core,

This is a reply on behalf of the i18n ITS working group. See also
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3481 for our discussion .

Thank you very much for your comment. We propose not to change the name
of the data category, and keep "translatability".

Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we don't hear
 from you , we will assume this issue as closed.

Regards,

Felix


[hidden email] wrote:

> Comment from the i18n review of:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060518/
>
> Comment 5
> At http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
> Editorial/substantive: E
> Owner: RI
>
> Location in reviewed document:
> 6.2
>
> Comment:
> 'Translatability' is not a good term for this, since it is already used in the sense of internationalization to allow for easy translation. Perhaps "Translation information" would be better, and more consistent with other data category titles.
>
>
> FS: The first ITS WD already talks about "translatabilty". So does the requirements document http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-itsreq-20050805/#transinfo . Given this long history of the term which you must be aware of, I disagree with your request to change it. I also disagree with your argument of consistency with other data categories: Our envisaged users are likely to focus only on a subset of data categories, see also the conformance section which separates data categories. Hence, consistency of naming is not so important, but rather consistency between ITS working drafts, implementations, presentations, ... .
>
>
> I18n: There is no need to be consistent in this regard with past working drafts. People should expect Working Drafts to change, as described in the status section. There is a much greater need to go forward with appropriate terminology.
>
>
> We don't see that this is a difficult change to make.
>
>
> "Our envisaged users are likely to focus only on a subset of data categories" We believe this is irrelevant to appropriate naming of a given data category, but in addition I don't think you are proposing that the 'translatability' category will always be usedindependently of other implementations, so I don't think this argument holds.
>
>
> We may be prepared to accept that 'Translation Information' is too vague. Alternative suggestions for the title are 'Translate Information' or 'Translate Directive'.
>
>
>
>



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RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability

r12a

The i18n Core WG still feels that 'translatability' is incorrect for
describing this data category, since it is typically used to describe
whether something has been enabled for translation, rather than whether
something should be translated or not.

We would like the ITS group to consider one more time whether this can be
changed.

Suggested alternatives:
Translate
Translate flag
Translate switch
Translate information
Translate directive


Thanks,
RI

============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Felix Sasaki [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 11 September 2006 01:53
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability
>
> Hello i18n core,
>
> This is a reply on behalf of the i18n ITS working group. See also
> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3481 for our
> discussion .
>
> Thank you very much for your comment. We propose not to
> change the name of the data category, and keep "translatability".
>
> Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we
> don't hear  from you , we will assume this issue as closed.
>
> Regards,
>
> Felix
>
>
> [hidden email] wrote:
> > Comment from the i18n review of:
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060518/
> >
> > Comment 5
> > At http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
> > Editorial/substantive: E
> > Owner: RI
> >
> > Location in reviewed document:
> > 6.2
> >
> > Comment:
> > 'Translatability' is not a good term for this, since it is
> already used in the sense of internationalization to allow
> for easy translation. Perhaps "Translation information" would
> be better, and more consistent with other data category titles.
> >
> >
> > FS: The first ITS WD already talks about "translatabilty".
> So does the requirements document
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-itsreq-20050805/#transinfo .
> Given this long history of the term which you must be aware
> of, I disagree with your request to change it. I also
> disagree with your argument of consistency with other data
> categories: Our envisaged users are likely to focus only on a
> subset of data categories, see also the conformance section
> which separates data categories. Hence, consistency of naming
> is not so important, but rather consistency between ITS
> working drafts, implementations, presentations, ... .
> >
> >
> > I18n: There is no need to be consistent in this regard with
> past working drafts. People should expect Working Drafts to
> change, as described in the status section. There is a much
> greater need to go forward with appropriate terminology.
> >
> >
> > We don't see that this is a difficult change to make.
> >
> >
> > "Our envisaged users are likely to focus only on a subset
> of data categories" We believe this is irrelevant to
> appropriate naming of a given data category, but in addition
> I don't think you are proposing that the 'translatability'
> category will always be usedindependently of other
> implementations, so I don't think this argument holds.
> >
> >
> > We may be prepared to accept that 'Translation Information'
> is too vague. Alternative suggestions for the title are
> 'Translate Information' or 'Translate Directive'.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>


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RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability

Yves Savourel-2

Hi Richard,

The name of the data category "Translatability" has been changed to "Translate", and the text has been modified accordingly. See:
http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html

Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we don't hear  from you , we will assume this issue as closed.

Thanks
-yves

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 5:45 AM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability


The i18n Core WG still feels that 'translatability' is incorrect for describing this data category, since it is typically used to
describe whether something has been enabled for translation, rather than whether something should be translated or not.

We would like the ITS group to consider one more time whether this can be changed.

Suggested alternatives:
Translate
Translate flag
Translate switch
Translate information
Translate directive


Thanks,
RI

============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)


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RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability

r12a

Thanks for making these changes Yves.  This is editorial, so just to you.

I think you should put the link text around just the name of the data
category, ie. <a>translate</a> data category, not <a>Translate data
category</a>.  This is

1. more consistent with common practice
2. more consistent with other parts of the ITS doc, eg. you don't currently
highlight more than 'selector' in "A required <>selector<> attribute ..."
2. more closely semantic markup - ie. the thing we are marking with the text
is the data category name 'translate' or 'terminology', no need to highlight
'data category'.

Also, given that we have distinctive styling and markup, I don't think we
need to capitalise the initial letter.

The links as they stand (particularly with the capitalisation) look more
like typical links to section headings than markup of keywords (which is
what is needed).

Hope that helps,
RI


============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yves Savourel [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 20 September 2006 21:38
> To: 'Richard Ishida'
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> The name of the data category "Translatability" has been
> changed to "Translate", and the text has been modified
> accordingly. See:
> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html
>
> Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we
> don't hear  from you , we will assume this issue as closed.
>
> Thanks
> -yves
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 5:45 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability
>
>
> The i18n Core WG still feels that 'translatability' is
> incorrect for describing this data category, since it is
> typically used to describe whether something has been enabled
> for translation, rather than whether something should be
> translated or not.
>
> We would like the ITS group to consider one more time whether
> this can be changed.
>
> Suggested alternatives:
> Translate
> Translate flag
> Translate switch
> Translate information
> Translate directive
>
>
> Thanks,
> RI
>
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>


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RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability

Felix Sasaki

>
> Thanks for making these changes Yves.  This is editorial, so just to you.

Hi Richard,

I agree with your change proposal regarding the markup and think also this
is only editorial.
I don't think we should give up the capitalization of the first letter:
I'm sure people will write about ITS in printed text, and in some cases
they might not have specific styling available. This would look a kind of
weird, e.g. like:

"The data category translate expresses information about ..."

So I'd still prefer

"The data category Translate expresses information about ..."

Cheers,

Felix

>
> I think you should put the link text around just the name of the data
> category, ie. <a>translate</a> data category, not <a>Translate data
> category</a>.  This is
>
> 1. more consistent with common practice
> 2. more consistent with other parts of the ITS doc, eg. you don't
> currently
> highlight more than 'selector' in "A required <>selector<> attribute ..."
> 2. more closely semantic markup - ie. the thing we are marking with the
> text
> is the data category name 'translate' or 'terminology', no need to
> highlight
> 'data category'.
>
> Also, given that we have distinctive styling and markup, I don't think we
> need to capitalise the initial letter.
>
> The links as they stand (particularly with the capitalisation) look more
> like typical links to section headings than markup of keywords (which is
> what is needed).
>
> Hope that helps,
> RI
>
>
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>
> http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Yves Savourel [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: 20 September 2006 21:38
>> To: 'Richard Ishida'
>> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
>> [hidden email]
>> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability
>>
>> Hi Richard,
>>
>> The name of the data category "Translatability" has been
>> changed to "Translate", and the text has been modified
>> accordingly. See:
>> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html
>>
>> Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we
>> don't hear  from you , we will assume this issue as closed.
>>
>> Thanks
>> -yves
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email]
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 5:45 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
>> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability
>>
>>
>> The i18n Core WG still feels that 'translatability' is
>> incorrect for describing this data category, since it is
>> typically used to describe whether something has been enabled
>> for translation, rather than whether something should be
>> translated or not.
>>
>> We would like the ITS group to consider one more time whether
>> this can be changed.
>>
>> Suggested alternatives:
>> Translate
>> Translate flag
>> Translate switch
>> Translate information
>> Translate directive
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>> RI
>>
>> ============
>> Richard Ishida
>> Internationalization Lead
>> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>>
>
>
>



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RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability

r12a
In reply to this post by Yves Savourel-2

Now that you have reduced the scope of the link to the name of the dc only,
I'm very satisfied.

Thanks!
RI


============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yves Savourel [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 20 September 2006 21:38
> To: 'Richard Ishida'
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> The name of the data category "Translatability" has been
> changed to "Translate", and the text has been modified
> accordingly. See:
> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html
>
> Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we
> don't hear  from you , we will assume this issue as closed.
>
> Thanks
> -yves
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 5:45 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Translatability
>
>
> The i18n Core WG still feels that 'translatability' is
> incorrect for describing this data category, since it is
> typically used to describe whether something has been enabled
> for translation, rather than whether something should be
> translated or not.
>
> We would like the ITS group to consider one more time whether
> this can be changed.
>
> Suggested alternatives:
> Translate
> Translate flag
> Translate switch
> Translate information
> Translate directive
>
>
> Thanks,
> RI
>
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>