[Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
12 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

r12a

Comment from the i18n review of:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060518/

Comment 28
At http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
Editorial/substantive: E
Owner: RI

Location in reviewed document:
6.5.2

Comment:
GEO WG regularly has to clarify for people that language declarations and directionality markup are very different things - including a long and draw out discussion with DITA folks. It seems dangerous to introduce an example here that seems to the uninitiated to say that the language markup is defining the application of the directionality markup.


In particular since the xpath expression probably doesn't need to go that far anyway for a reasonable example. It could just say /body/p[1]/quote or //quote[23] or some such.




Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

Felix Sasaki

Hello i18n core,

This is a reply on behalf of the i18n ITS working group. See also
http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3500 for our discussion.

Thank you very much for your comment. We agreed to implement it. Please
have a look at
http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#selection-local
 , especially example 15: "Note that xml:lang indicates only the
language, not the directionality."

Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we don't hear
 from you , we will assume this issue as closed.

Regards,

Felix


[hidden email] wrote:

> Comment from the i18n review of:
> http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060518/
>
> Comment 28
> At http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
> Editorial/substantive: E
> Owner: RI
>
> Location in reviewed document:
> 6.5.2
>
> Comment:
> GEO WG regularly has to clarify for people that language declarations and directionality markup are very different things - including a long and draw out discussion with DITA folks. It seems dangerous to introduce an example here that seems to the uninitiated to say that the language markup is defining the application of the directionality markup.
>
>
> In particular since the xpath expression probably doesn't need to go that far anyway for a reasonable example. It could just say /body/p[1]/quote or //quote[23] or some such.
>
>
>
>



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

r12a

Actually this is not a good example, since no dir markup is needed for this
quote.  The bidirectional algorithm will simply take care of it, so adding
the markup is not appropriate.  What you really need is a quote that mixes
Hebrew and English, such as the quote I suggested at
http://people.w3.org/rishida/articles/phrases#reach (meaning
Internationalization Activity, W3C).

As it stands, this is is doing something we recommend against in the GEO
bidi best practises.

RI


============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Felix Sasaki [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 11 September 2006 04:06
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
>
> Hello i18n core,
>
> This is a reply on behalf of the i18n ITS working group. See
> also http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=3500 for
> our discussion.
>
> Thank you very much for your comment. We agreed to implement
> it. Please have a look at
> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#s
> election-local
>  , especially example 15: "Note that xml:lang indicates only
> the language, not the directionality."
>
> Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we
> don't hear  from you , we will assume this issue as closed.
>
> Regards,
>
> Felix
>
>
> [hidden email] wrote:
> > Comment from the i18n review of:
> > http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-its-20060518/
> >
> > Comment 28
> > At http://www.w3.org/International/reviews/0606-its/
> > Editorial/substantive: E
> > Owner: RI
> >
> > Location in reviewed document:
> > 6.5.2
> >
> > Comment:
> > GEO WG regularly has to clarify for people that language
> declarations and directionality markup are very different
> things - including a long and draw out discussion with DITA
> folks. It seems dangerous to introduce an example here that
> seems to the uninitiated to say that the language markup is
> defining the application of the directionality markup.
> >
> >
> > In particular since the xpath expression probably doesn't
> need to go that far anyway for a reasonable example. It could
> just say /body/p[1]/quote or //quote[23] or some such.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

Yves Savourel

Hi Richard,

We have changed the examples 15, 33, and 25. See:
http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#selection-local
http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#directionality-implementation

Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we don't hear  from you , we will assume this issue as closed.

Thanks
-yves


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 12:56 PM
To: 'Felix Sasaki'; [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'


Actually this is not a good example, since no dir markup is needed for this quote.  The bidirectional algorithm will simply take
care of it, so adding the markup is not appropriate.  What you really need is a quote that mixes Hebrew and English, such as the
quote I suggested at http://people.w3.org/rishida/articles/phrases#reach (meaning Internationalization Activity, W3C).

As it stands, this is is doing something we recommend against in the GEO bidi best practises.

RI


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

r12a

Hello Yves,

Unfortunately there is a typo in all of these examples. 'W3CW'.

Cheers,
RI


============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yves Savourel
> Sent: 14 September 2006 13:12
> To: 'Richard Ishida'
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
>
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> We have changed the examples 15, 33, and 25. See:
> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#s
> election-local
> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#d
> irectionality-implementation
>
> Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we
> don't hear  from you , we will assume this issue as closed.
>
> Thanks
> -yves
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 12:56 PM
> To: 'Felix Sasaki'; [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
>
>
> Actually this is not a good example, since no dir markup is
> needed for this quote.  The bidirectional algorithm will
> simply take care of it, so adding the markup is not
> appropriate.  What you really need is a quote that mixes
> Hebrew and English, such as the quote I suggested at
> http://people.w3.org/rishida/articles/phrases#reach (meaning
> Internationalization Activity, W3C).
>
> As it stands, this is is doing something we recommend against
> in the GEO bidi best practises.
>
> RI
>
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

Yves Savourel-2

Mmm... The 'W3CW' appears when you use Firefox, not IE...

I'm guessing this has to do with the Bidi characters I had to use to display the text correctly (since the HTML is generated from
the XML and we can't add a *real* <span dir="rtl">.

I'll try to find a solution.
Thanks for noticing.
-yves

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Richard Ishida [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:15 AM
To: 'Yves Savourel'
Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

Hello Yves,

Unfortunately there is a typo in all of these examples. 'W3CW'.

Cheers,
RI


============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yves Savourel
> Sent: 14 September 2006 13:12
> To: 'Richard Ishida'
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
>
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> We have changed the examples 15, 33, and 25. See:
> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#s
> election-local
> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#d
> irectionality-implementation
>
> Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we don't
> hear  from you , we will assume this issue as closed.
>
> Thanks
> -yves
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 12:56 PM
> To: 'Felix Sasaki'; [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
>
>
> Actually this is not a good example, since no dir markup is needed for
> this quote.  The bidirectional algorithm will simply take care of it,
> so adding the markup is not appropriate.  What you really need is a
> quote that mixes Hebrew and English, such as the quote I suggested at
> http://people.w3.org/rishida/articles/phrases#reach (meaning
> Internationalization Activity, W3C).
>
> As it stands, this is is doing something we recommend against in the
> GEO bidi best practises.
>
> RI
>
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

r12a

You can use a real dir="rtl" in our version of xmlspec.

RI


============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yves Savourel [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 14 September 2006 16:26
> To: 'Richard Ishida'
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
>
> Mmm... The 'W3CW' appears when you use Firefox, not IE...
>
> I'm guessing this has to do with the Bidi characters I had to
> use to display the text correctly (since the HTML is
> generated from the XML and we can't add a *real* <span dir="rtl">.
>
> I'll try to find a solution.
> Thanks for noticing.
> -yves
>
>  
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Ishida [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:15 AM
> To: 'Yves Savourel'
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
>
> Hello Yves,
>
> Unfortunately there is a typo in all of these examples. 'W3CW'.
>
> Cheers,
> RI
>
>
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>
> http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
>  
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yves Savourel
> > Sent: 14 September 2006 13:12
> > To: 'Richard Ishida'
> > Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > [hidden email]
> > Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
> >
> >
> > Hi Richard,
> >
> > We have changed the examples 15, 33, and 25. See:
> > http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#s
> > election-local
> > http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#d
> > irectionality-implementation
> >
> > Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we don't
> > hear  from you , we will assume this issue as closed.
> >
> > Thanks
> > -yves
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 12:56 PM
> > To: 'Felix Sasaki'; [hidden email]
> > Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> > Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
> >
> >
> > Actually this is not a good example, since no dir markup is
> needed for
> > this quote.  The bidirectional algorithm will simply take
> care of it,
> > so adding the markup is not appropriate.  What you really need is a
> > quote that mixes Hebrew and English, such as the quote I
> suggested at
> > http://people.w3.org/rishida/articles/phrases#reach (meaning
> > Internationalization Activity, W3C).
> >
> > As it stands, this is is doing something we recommend
> against in the
> > GEO bidi best practises.
> >
> > RI
> >
> >
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

r12a

And here's an example:

XML:
<p><phrase dir="rtl" xml:lang="ar">??? ????? ??? ?? ?? ?? 1996 ?
????...</phrase></p>

HTML after XSLT run:
http://www.w3.org/International/geo/html-tech/tech-bidi.html#ri20060726.1251
42845

RI


============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Richard Ishida
> Sent: 14 September 2006 17:03
> To: 'Yves Savourel'
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
>
>
> You can use a real dir="rtl" in our version of xmlspec.
>
> RI
>
>
> ============
> Richard Ishida
> Internationalization Lead
> W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
>
> http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> http://www.w3.org/International/
> http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
>  
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Yves Savourel [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: 14 September 2006 16:26
> > To: 'Richard Ishida'
> > Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > [hidden email]
> > Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
> >
> > Mmm... The 'W3CW' appears when you use Firefox, not IE...
> >
> > I'm guessing this has to do with the Bidi characters I had
> to use to
> > display the text correctly (since the HTML is generated
> from the XML
> > and we can't add a *real* <span dir="rtl">.
> >
> > I'll try to find a solution.
> > Thanks for noticing.
> > -yves
> >
> >  
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Richard Ishida [mailto:[hidden email]]
> > Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 9:15 AM
> > To: 'Yves Savourel'
> > Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > [hidden email]
> > Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
> >
> > Hello Yves,
> >
> > Unfortunately there is a typo in all of these examples. 'W3CW'.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > RI
> >
> >
> > ============
> > Richard Ishida
> > Internationalization Lead
> > W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)
> >
> > http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
> > http://www.w3.org/International/
> > http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
> >  
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Yves Savourel
> > > Sent: 14 September 2006 13:12
> > > To: 'Richard Ishida'
> > > Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> > > [hidden email]
> > > Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Richard,
> > >
> > > We have changed the examples 15, 33, and 25. See:
> > > http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#s
> > > election-local
> > > http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#d
> > > irectionality-implementation
> > >
> > > Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied.
> If we don't
> > > hear  from you , we will assume this issue as closed.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > > -yves
> > >
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Richard Ishida
> > > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 12:56 PM
> > > To: 'Felix Sasaki'; [hidden email]
> > > Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email]
> > > Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
> > >
> > >
> > > Actually this is not a good example, since no dir markup is
> > needed for
> > > this quote.  The bidirectional algorithm will simply take
> > care of it,
> > > so adding the markup is not appropriate.  What you really
> need is a
> > > quote that mixes Hebrew and English, such as the quote I
> > suggested at
> > > http://people.w3.org/rishida/articles/phrases#reach (meaning
> > > Internationalization Activity, W3C).
> > >
> > > As it stands, this is is doing something we recommend
> > against in the
> > > GEO bidi best practises.
> > >
> > > RI
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

Najib Tounsi
In reply to this post by Yves Savourel-2

Yves Savourel wrote:
> Mmm... The 'W3CW' appears when you use Firefox, not IE...
>
> I'm guessing this has to do with the Bidi characters I had to use to display the text correctly (since the HTML is generated from
> the XML and we can't add a *real* <span dir="rtl">.
>
> I'll try to find a solution.
>  
It seems that firefox/camino/mozilla have a strange behavior with this  
pre element
<pre>
&#x202B; &#1606;&#1588;&#1575;&#1591;
&#1575;&#1604;&#1578;&#1583;&#1608;&#1610;&#1604; W3C
</pre>

where 2020B is a ctrl char, (RIGHT-TO-LEFT EMBEDDING here).
The texte is "Internationalization Activity" in Arabic (from your
example 35)

A solution is to break your texte in two lines !??
<pre>
&#x202B; &#1606;&#1588;&#1575;&#1591;
&#1575;&#1604;&#1578;&#1583;&#1608;&#1610;&#1604; W3C
</pre>

Really strange.
See my example of the  bug in
http://www.w3c.org.ma/Tests/W3CW-bug.html

Regards,

Najib

--
Najib TOUNSI (mailto:tounsi @ w3.org)
Bureau W3C au Maroc (http://www.w3c.org.ma/)
Ecole Mohammadia d'Ingenieurs, BP 765 Agdal-RABAT Maroc (Morocco)
Phone : +212 (0) 37 68 71 50 (P1711)  Fax : +212 (0) 37 77 88 53
Mobile: +212 (0) 61 22 00 30




Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

Yves Savourel-2

Hi Najib,

Thanks for the workaround. Interesting behavior.

We'll probably try to resolve the issue by using <span dir="rtl">: It's 'just' a matter of getting the transform to catch the cases
where we need to add the markup. (The text of the examples in the spec is generated from the real XML files). But it is good to know
that there is a way around if needed.

Thanks
-yves

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Najib Tounsi [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2006 12:06 PM
To: Yves Savourel
Cc: 'Richard Ishida'; [hidden email]; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

Yves Savourel wrote:
> Mmm... The 'W3CW' appears when you use Firefox, not IE...
>
> I'm guessing this has to do with the Bidi characters I had to use to
> display the text correctly (since the HTML is generated from the XML and we can't add a *real* <span dir="rtl">.
>
> I'll try to find a solution.
>  
It seems that firefox/camino/mozilla have a strange behavior with this pre element <pre> &#x202B; &#1606;&#1588;&#1575;&#1591;
&#1575;&#1604;&#1578;&#1583;&#1608;&#1610;&#1604; W3C </pre>

where 2020B is a ctrl char, (RIGHT-TO-LEFT EMBEDDING here).
The texte is "Internationalization Activity" in Arabic (from your example 35)

A solution is to break your texte in two lines !??
<pre>
&#x202B; &#1606;&#1588;&#1575;&#1591;
&#1575;&#1604;&#1578;&#1583;&#1608;&#1610;&#1604; W3C </pre>

Really strange.
See my example of the  bug in
http://www.w3c.org.ma/Tests/W3CW-bug.html

Regards,

Najib


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

Yves Savourel
In reply to this post by r12a

> Unfortunately there is a typo in all of these examples. 'W3CW'.

Hi Richard,

We have changed the examples 15, 33, and 25, so the generated HTML uses <span dir="rtl"> and seems to work with both IE and Firefox.
See:
http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#selection-local
http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#directionality-implementation

Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we don't
hear from you, we will assume this issue as closed.

Thanks
-yves



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'

r12a

Great, thanks.

Satisfied.

RI


============
Richard Ishida
Internationalization Lead
W3C (World Wide Web Consortium)

http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/
http://www.w3.org/International/
http://people.w3.org/rishida/blog/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ishida/
 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Yves Savourel [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: 17 September 2006 17:30
> To: 'Richard Ishida'
> Cc: [hidden email]; [hidden email];
> [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [Comment on ITS WD] Avoid xml:lang='he'
>
> > Unfortunately there is a typo in all of these examples. 'W3CW'.
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> We have changed the examples 15, 33, and 25, so the generated
> HTML uses <span dir="rtl"> and seems to work with both IE and Firefox.
> See:
> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#s
> election-local
> http://www.w3.org/International/its/itstagset/itstagset.html#d
> irectionality-implementation
>
> Please let us know within 2 weeks if you are satisfied. If we
> don't hear from you, we will assume this issue as closed.
>
> Thanks
> -yves
>
>