Although no external representation of schemas is required ... What is an "external" representation?

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Although no external representation of schemas is required ... What is an "external" representation?

Costello, Roger L.
Hi Folks,

In section 3.1.2 of the Structures specification it says:

    Although no external representation of schemas
    is required ...

What is an "external" representation of an XML Schema? External to what?

What is a non-external (internal?) representation of an XML Schema? Do such things exist?

/Roger

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Re: Although no external representation of schemas is required ... What is an "external" representation?

G. Ken Holman
At 2012-06-28 12:15 +0000, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>In section 3.1.2 of the Structures specification it says:
>
>     Although no external representation of schemas
>     is required ...
>
>What is an "external" representation of an XML Schema?

Typically XML Schema syntax in XML (though I gather there are some
experiments out there with alternative syntaxes).

>External to what?

The schema processor.

>What is a non-external (internal?) representation of an XML Schema?
>Do such things exist?

They can.  As a convenience a processor can build-in the schema
components of a given namespace such that the user need not have to
supply an external expression of those schema components.

I don't know any that do, just because I haven't looked, but it is
certainly possible for a processor to offer this.

I hope this helps.

. . . . . . . . . . Ken

--
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Contact us for world-wide XML consulting and instructor-led training
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Re: Although no external representation of schemas is required ... What is an "external" representation?

Michael Kay

> They can.  As a convenience a processor can build-in the schema
> components of a given namespace such that the user need not have to
> supply an external expression of those schema components.
>
> I don't know any that do
Saxon's schema processor has built-in knowledge of the components of the
schemata for the XML and XSI namespaces.

Michael Kay
Saxonica

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RE: Although no external representation of schemas is required ... What is an "external" representation?

David Ezell
In reply to this post by G. Ken Holman
Yes, this was exactly the intention.  And some of the discussions around the issue use the term "born binary" to mean schemas that are encoded into a processor, with no "external" XML representation ever actually having existed.

-----Original Message-----
From: G. Ken Holman [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:23 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Although no external representation of schemas is required ... What is an "external" representation?

At 2012-06-28 12:15 +0000, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>In section 3.1.2 of the Structures specification it says:
>
>     Although no external representation of schemas
>     is required ...
>
>What is an "external" representation of an XML Schema?

Typically XML Schema syntax in XML (though I gather there are some experiments out there with alternative syntaxes).

>External to what?

The schema processor.

>What is a non-external (internal?) representation of an XML Schema?
>Do such things exist?

They can.  As a convenience a processor can build-in the schema components of a given namespace such that the user need not have to supply an external expression of those schema components.

I don't know any that do, just because I haven't looked, but it is certainly possible for a processor to offer this.

I hope this helps.

. . . . . . . . . . Ken

--
Public XSLT, XSL-FO, UBL and code list classes in Europe -- Oct 2012 Contact us for world-wide XML consulting and instructor-led training Free 5-hour lecture: http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/links/udemy.htm
Crane Softwrights Ltd.            http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/
G. Ken Holman                   mailto:[hidden email]
Google+ profile: https://plus.google.com/116832879756988317389/about
Legal business disclaimers:    http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal


________________________________
This electronic message, including attachments, is intended only for the use of the individual or company named above or to which it is addressed. The information contained in this message shall be considered confidential and proprietary, and may include confidential work product. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any unauthorized use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and deleting this email immediately.

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Re: Although no external representation of schemas is required ... What is an "external" representation?

Noah Mendelsohn
In addition to whatever datatype components may be built in, one of the use
cases we discussed was one in which an XHTML editor might have built in
knowledge of a schema for XHMTL. Nothing precludes a special-purpose editor
of other industry standard vocabularies from building in knowledge of the
validation rules for those vocabularies.

Noah

On 6/28/2012 12:37 PM, David Ezell wrote:

> Yes, this was exactly the intention.  And some of the discussions around the issue use the term "born binary" to mean schemas that are encoded into a processor, with no "external" XML representation ever actually having existed.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: G. Ken Holman [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2012 8:23 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Although no external representation of schemas is required ... What is an "external" representation?
>
> At 2012-06-28 12:15 +0000, Costello, Roger L. wrote:
>> In section 3.1.2 of the Structures specification it says:
>>
>>      Although no external representation of schemas
>>      is required ...
>>
>> What is an "external" representation of an XML Schema?
>
> Typically XML Schema syntax in XML (though I gather there are some experiments out there with alternative syntaxes).
>
>> External to what?
>
> The schema processor.
>
>> What is a non-external (internal?) representation of an XML Schema?
>> Do such things exist?
>
> They can.  As a convenience a processor can build-in the schema components of a given namespace such that the user need not have to supply an external expression of those schema components.
>
> I don't know any that do, just because I haven't looked, but it is certainly possible for a processor to offer this.
>
> I hope this helps.
>
> . . . . . . . . . . Ken
>
> --
> Public XSLT, XSL-FO, UBL and code list classes in Europe -- Oct 2012 Contact us for world-wide XML consulting and instructor-led training Free 5-hour lecture: http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/links/udemy.htm
> Crane Softwrights Ltd.            http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/x/
> G. Ken Holman                   mailto:[hidden email]
> Google+ profile: https://plus.google.com/116832879756988317389/about
> Legal business disclaimers:    http://www.CraneSoftwrights.com/legal
>
>
> ________________________________
> This electronic message, including attachments, is intended only for the use of the individual or company named above or to which it is addressed. The information contained in this message shall be considered confidential and proprietary, and may include confidential work product. If you are not the intended recipient, please be aware that any unauthorized use, dissemination, distribution or copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender by replying to this message and deleting this email immediately.
>
>


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Re: Although no external representation of schemas is required ... What is an "external" representation?

Michael Kay


On 28/06/2012 22:57, Noah Mendelsohn wrote:
> In addition to whatever datatype components may be built in, one of
> the use cases we discussed was one in which an XHTML editor might have
> built in knowledge of a schema for XHMTL. Nothing precludes a
> special-purpose editor of other industry standard vocabularies from
> building in knowledge of the validation rules for those vocabularies.
>
>
And of course, being "built-in" doesn't mean it wasn't derived from a
source schema document initially. Saxon, for example, validates XSD
files with the help of finite-state machine tables that are hard-coded
into the schema processor, but which were originally derived by taking
the schema-for-schema-documents, compiling and determinizing the finite
state machine, and then generating a Java source code representation of
the state tables.

Michael Kay
Saxonica